On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:58:20 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Richard J." wrote:

Steve Dulieu wrote:
Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes
missed it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from
SOT 11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all
the bits of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin.
Planning my sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush
even as I type:-)

What about the DC service from Euston to Watford Junction? Will your pass
be valid all the way or only to the zone 6 boundary at Hatch End?

Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete
rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches of
the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6, because
Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland & Southern
services?

Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 13 Oct, 12:12, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:58:20 -0700, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote:

(snip)

Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete
rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches of
the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6,
because Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland
& Southern services?

Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.
--
Paul C


Thanks - as you say we shall see what is to happen shortly.

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:58:20 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Richard J." wrote:

Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete
rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches
of
the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6, because
Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland & Southern
services?

Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Paul

On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

(snip)

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Paul

Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between
Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the
cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their
metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though.

I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the
idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at
all well to Oyster PAYG.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

(snip)

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands
purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Paul

Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between
Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the
cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their
metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though.

I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the
idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at
all well to Oyster PAYG.


But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the
cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where
you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is
a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is
part of the system?

Paul S

On 13 Oct, 13:20, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

(snip)

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands
purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Paul

Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between
Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the
cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their
metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though.

I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the
idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at
all well to Oyster PAYG.

But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the
cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where
you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is
a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is
part of the system?

Paul S


Yes - Oyster PAYG is indeed already available on Chiltern from
Amersham, which mirrors the situation with paper tickets where LU & NR
tickets are interavailable on this route. However Chiltern's
Marylebone ticket office is the only place where Chiltern might take
money off a passenger to add to an Oyster card for PAYG use (and I'm
not 100% certain that the Marylebone ticket office deals in Oyster
either - they could just send you across the concourse to the LU
ticket office).

To be honest I've no idea how the Oyster PAYG monies gets divided up
when it comes to Chiltern and LU. If one bears in mind that Oyster
PAYG is also valid from West/South Ruislip to Marylebone, wheras paper
tickets are not (i.e. there is no conventional interavailability of
ticketing on this route), this would suggest that Chiltern and LU have
a more complicated arrangement in place - though whether it deals with
ticketing as a whole, or just Oyster PAYG, I have no idea.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:20:58 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


"Mizter T" wrote in message
roups.com...
On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

(snip)

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands
purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between
Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the
cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their
metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though.

I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the
idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at
all well to Oyster PAYG.


But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the
cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where
you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is
a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is
part of the system?

I'm not close to the detail on all of this these days but I would guess
it works as you suggest. Where Oyster PAYG is used on a shared section
like Harrow to Chorleywood it is impossible to detect what train was
used. Therefore whatever the apportionment rules are for cash tickets
would apply to PAYG revenues. I can't see someone sitting down trying to
link the entry and exit times from card data to the most likely or
actual train departure / arrivals. Too much work for too little benefit.
Where PAYG data allows unequivocal decisions to be taken on what company
was used (as in Chiltern trains to and from Marylebone) then I would
expect the money would go the operator via the settlement process. The
only other comment to make is that all the above is fine and dandy but
who knows what impact ticketing history may have.

On the Watford Junction issue I doubt very much that London Midland will
voluntarily decide to accept PAYG to Watford Junction. However any
restriction will be extremely difficult to police given the
interavailability to Harrow and Wealdstone and the complete lack of
separation of platforms, exits and gatelines at Watford and Euston. If,
as Mr Thant says, stations north of the zone boundary are in Zone A then
the compromise is to set a fare value in that instance at a level that
London Midland can live with and which is acceptable to TfL. There will
probably be an element of "suck it and see" initially and once the usage
and revenue data stabilises then a more robust settlement position will
be put in place. The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU
farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The
only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and
Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR
fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash
fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes.
The same issues might arise at Watford Junction with much bigger
implications for NR pricing.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:41:17 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU
farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The
only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and
Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR
fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash
fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes.

This used to be the case, but it changed on 2 Jan this year. LU cash
fares are now valid to Harrow & Wealdstone (and all the way to Hatch
End).

On 14 Oct, 22:27, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:41:17 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU
farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The
only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and
Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR
fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash
fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes.

This used to be the case, but it changed on 2 Jan this year. LU cash
fares are now valid to Harrow & Wealdstone (and all the way to Hatch
End).

Yeah - I noticed that earlier today when looking at the PDF of the
current fares booklet [1] and compared it to the 2006 one.

This and other things all demonstrate that Silverlink Metro has
increasingly fallen under the influence of TfL in the period before
they take over - a bit like how Hong Kong was falling under the
influence of the PRC whilst the power of the British Governor waned
before the official handover date.

Not, that is to say, that TfL is like the PRC... I've gifted that one
to critics of Mayor Ken really haven't I ?!


Back on topic, I wanted to look and see whether there were any fares
anomalies on this route - e.g. a H&W to Euston fare costing less than
a Kenton to Euston fare - but I've already run into problems with
conflicting information. The NR Journey Planner suggests an SDS would
be £3.80, TheTrainline shows two SDS results at £3.80 and £4, whilst
the Avantix Traveller software shows it as £4.

Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly
calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this
line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any
London zonal rail fare.

But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR
JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and
also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40.
Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be
£8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak
Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is
£3.

Looking at the Kilburn High Road to Euston fares Avantix, NR JP and
Trainline all agree again on this - an SDS is £2.40 and a CDR is £3.40
(same as the Queens Park to Euston CDR). But again neither of these
fares is what it should be under the London zonal rail fares table - a
zones 1+2 SDS should be £2.10, a CDR £3.

All of which leaves me scratching my head in a state of total
confusion and wondering just what possible logic is being applied to
generate these fares, and also - given the different results for the
H&W fare - wondering whether I can trust any of the information I get
from any of these sources!


-----
[1] TfL Fares and Tickets 2007 (PDF)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-to-fares-and-
tickets-0709.pdf

[2] National Rail - London Zonal Fares
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html