On 14 Oct, 22:27, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:41:17 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU
farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The
only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and
Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR
fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash
fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes.

This used to be the case, but it changed on 2 Jan this year. LU cash
fares are now valid to Harrow & Wealdstone (and all the way to Hatch
End).

Yeah - I noticed that earlier today when looking at the PDF of the
current fares booklet [1] and compared it to the 2006 one.

This and other things all demonstrate that Silverlink Metro has
increasingly fallen under the influence of TfL in the period before
they take over - a bit like how Hong Kong was falling under the
influence of the PRC whilst the power of the British Governor waned
before the official handover date.

Not, that is to say, that TfL is like the PRC... I've gifted that one
to critics of Mayor Ken really haven't I ?!


Back on topic, I wanted to look and see whether there were any fares
anomalies on this route - e.g. a H&W to Euston fare costing less than
a Kenton to Euston fare - but I've already run into problems with
conflicting information. The NR Journey Planner suggests an SDS would
be £3.80, TheTrainline shows two SDS results at £3.80 and £4, whilst
the Avantix Traveller software shows it as £4.

Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly
calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this
line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any
London zonal rail fare.

But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR
JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and
also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40.
Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be
£8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak
Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is
£3.

Looking at the Kilburn High Road to Euston fares Avantix, NR JP and
Trainline all agree again on this - an SDS is £2.40 and a CDR is £3.40
(same as the Queens Park to Euston CDR). But again neither of these
fares is what it should be under the London zonal rail fares table - a
zones 1+2 SDS should be £2.10, a CDR £3.

All of which leaves me scratching my head in a state of total
confusion and wondering just what possible logic is being applied to
generate these fares, and also - given the different results for the
H&W fare - wondering whether I can trust any of the information I get
from any of these sources!


-----
[1] TfL Fares and Tickets 2007 (PDF)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-to-fares-and-
tickets-0709.pdf

[2] National Rail - London Zonal Fares
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html

On 15 Oct, 00:55, Mizter T wrote:
Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly
calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this
line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any
London zonal rail fare.

From [2]:
''On some routes between certain stations the Train Companies share
their routes with the London Underground. On these routes Underground
prices (including Pay as You Go) are charged. This will not change."

But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR
JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and
also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40.
Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be
£8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak
Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is
£3.

You might want to look at this thread I started:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....1f26b9ff027f3a

Basically I was told TfL are already setting the fares for Silverlink,
and they've decided not to apply the zonal fares rules to themselves,
for no obvious reason.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 15 Oct, 01:26, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 15 Oct, 00:55, Mizter T wrote:

Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly
calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this
line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any
London zonal rail fare.
From [2]:

''On some routes between certain stations the Train Companies share
their routes with the London Underground. On these routes Underground
prices (including Pay as You Go) are charged. This will not change."

Thanks - yes, it would help if I read the documents that I referred
to!

The fact that the LU fare now takes predominance is I think a fairly
new development - this post of mine from 2005 shows there was a bit of
a messy situation at Walthamstow Central when it came to fares (a
situation that I strongly suspect was mirrored at Seven Sisters and
Tottenham Hale):
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....cfe556118559f4

Such situations don't appear to exist anymore as LU fares now rule the
roost. Can anyone say exactly since when this has been the case?

Also from that page, in fact just above the text you quoted is this:

-----
What Train Companies will be covered by this change?

All Train companies operating National Rail services that stop between
any two stations in the London Fare Zones area will offer these fares.
They a- Chiltern Railways; c2c; First Capital Connect; First Great
Western; Heathrow Connect; 'one' Railway; Silverlink County; Southern;
Southeastern; South West Trains.
-----

Whilst Silverlink County gets a mention, Silverlink Metro is notable
by its absence...


But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR
JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and
also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40.
Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be
£8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak
Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is
£3.

You might want to look at this thread I started:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....owse_thread/th...

Basically I was told TfL are already setting the fares for Silverlink,
and they've decided not to apply the zonal fares rules to themselves,
for no obvious reason.

U


Thanks, that at least clears up a little bit of the mystery!

I just wonder whether it's some incredibly complex attempt to mesh LU
fares into the Silverlink Metro fare scale. Though of course that
doesn't really make a lot of sense either, given that all LU cash
fares are now either £3 or £4. Perhaps these Silverlink Metro fares
are merely the same as they were (perhaps plus a bit for inflation)
before January '07, when London zonal rail fares were introduced. As
you say, it's all a bit inexplicable really.

I guess that TfL is going to roll out LU cash fares on London
Overground at the fares change in January '08, so as to shift people
over onto Oyster PAYG - though that is only a guess. I'm not sure
whether so doing would mess up any of the rest of the rail fares
ecosystem - I can't immediately see any knock-on problems if this were
to happen.

Change of subject (sort-of) - I have an intriguing scenario to share
with you all regarding Oyster PAYG fares on the North London Line, but
that will have to wait for another day.

On 15 Oct, 02:17, Mizter T wrote:
Whilst Silverlink County gets a mention, Silverlink Metro is notable
by its absence...

It wasn't until somebody complained...

I guess that TfL is going to roll out LU cash fares on London
Overground at the fares change in January '08, so as to shift people
over onto Oyster PAYG - though that is only a guess. I'm not sure
whether so doing would mess up any of the rest of the rail fares
ecosystem - I can't immediately see any knock-on problems if this were
to happen.

There's a note on this in the last board meeting minutes:
"TfL London Rail and TfL Fares and Ticketing are considering how best
to integrate Overground fares into the TfL fares structure from 11
November, the start of the London Rail Concession. An Oyster
promotional fare is proposed, designed to get passengers used to
Oyster Pay As You Go on a National Rail service that previously did
not accept this form of payment prior to 11 November."
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-papers(1).pdf

Hopefully we'll get some more detail from the next meeting, which is
next week.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 15 Oct, 12:16, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 15 Oct, 02:17, Mizter T wrote:

Whilst Silverlink County gets a mention, Silverlink Metro is notable
by its absence...

It wasn't until somebody complained...

Aha - yes, I see - courtesy of the 'Wayback Machine' - that in April
2007 that page listed Silverlink Metro as being covered by that
change, whilst in May 2007 - hey presto - Silverlink Metro has
vanished from the list.!

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://...onalFares.html

I presume this was your good work.


I guess that TfL is going to roll out LU cash fares on London
Overground at the fares change in January '08, so as to shift people
over onto Oyster PAYG - though that is only a guess. I'm not sure
whether so doing would mess up any of the rest of the rail fares
ecosystem - I can't immediately see any knock-on problems if this were
to happen.

There's a note on this in the last board meeting minutes:
"TfL London Rail and TfL Fares and Ticketing are considering how best
to integrate Overground fares into the TfL fares structure from 11
November, the start of the London Rail Concession. An Oyster
promotional fare is proposed, designed to get passengers used to
Oyster Pay As You Go on a National Rail service that previously did
not accept this form of payment prior to 11 November.
"http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Agenda-and-papers(1)...

Hopefully we'll get some more detail from the next meeting, which is
next week.

U


I must admit I had already seen that - but yes, the TfL board papers
are a great way of gathering information, especially when one makes
copious usage of the ''text search' function in Adobe reader.

Regarding the idea of the proposed Oyster promotional fare - I'd guess
that it'd be for the NLL and WLL routes (as on the the DC lines the
standard LU PAYG fare already applies up to H&W - I'd bet that'd be
extended up to Hatch End, though what happens north of there is still
to be revealed, as we've discussed elsewhere on this thread!).

The flexibility to apply promotional fares is indeed one of the
benefits of Oyster. However I'd sound a note of caution about this -
the danger about a promotional fare is that it could lull NLL & WLL
passengers into thinking that Oyster fares would always be as cheap as
they were when first introduced.

However said all that, if TfL do want to hike the NLL/WLL prices for
paper tickets up to LU fare levels (i.e. £3 for non-zone 1 journeys)
in January '08, then an all out offensive to get Oyster cards into
passengers pockets would be beneficial (though I'd imagine that a
great number of NLL & WLL pax already have one). A promotional fare
would form part of this offensive.

I also hope that ticket office staff are being properly trained in the
ways of the Oyster and are going to be ready to cope with it! At the
moment NR ticket offices that deal with Oyster do so on a basic level
- they refer passengers with more complex issues on to an LU ticket
office. I wonder how well the London Overground ticket offices (those
that aren't going to be managed by LU) will handle such issues.