MIG wrote:
On 18 Oct, 12:41, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"lonelytraveller" wrote in
ooglegroups.com...

On 17 Oct, 18:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Its not easy to summarise, this RUS being 200 odd pages, but it looks
like
they want the capacity at the terminii to allow increased frequency on
existing longer distnce routes into LB and/or VIC, even before bringing
Thameslink into teh equation. As you say, Ken also wants this route for
Orbirail, so the objectors are going to have a lot of work on...
Paul
Is there any particular reason that the objecting people don't want to
travel via extended East London Line, and change at Canada water onto
the Jubilee line?

Because it will take half an hour longer?

That's not really true, and can be checked using Journey Planner quite
easily. The main issue with London Bridge is that if you are travelling
on to anywhere else other than the immediate vicinity, the interchange
penalty from train - Tube or vice versa is pretty high; 7 minutes is
what the Journey Planner offers, which is tight (particularly in the
outbound direction where you are aiming to catch a train that leaves
every 10-20 mins).

You can compare a bunch of journey times from New Cross Gate to key
destinations via both London Bridge and via the existing ELL service to
show why diverting people via the ELL is actually not a huge hardship
(for other stations on the ELLX, just add the appropriate amount of
minutes; and remember that the ELL service will be 8tph x 4 cars to
Sydenham plus another 4tph rail x 6-8 cars to London Bridge (i.e. up to
64 cars per hour) whereas the current rail service is up to 6tph x 6-8
cars (i.e. up to 48 cars per hour).

London Bridge: via ELL, 15 mins; via rail, 11 mins
Canary Wharf: via ELL, 12 mins; via rail, 22 mins
Victoria: via ELL, 29 mins; via rail, 31 mins
Charing Cross: via ELL, 26 mins (Canada Water / Waterloo); via rail, 25 mins
Oxford Circus: via ELL, 29 mins (via C Wtr / Bond St); via rail, 30 mins
(via L Bridge / Bond St)
Tottenham Court Road: via ELL, 29 mins (via C Wtr / Waterloo); via rail,
31 mins (via L Bridge / Bond St)
Bank: via ELL, 20 mins (via Shadwell); via rail, 22 mins (fast walk from
L Bridge)
Liverpool Street: via ELL, 19 mins; via rail, 31 mins (bus from L Bridge)
King's Cross: via ELL, 30 mins; via rail, 30 mins

Dave

On Oct 28, 7:34 pm, Dave A wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 18 Oct, 12:41, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"lonelytraveller" wrote in
ooglegroups.com...

On 17 Oct, 18:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Its not easy to summarise, this RUS being 200 odd pages, but it looks
like
they want the capacity at the terminii to allow increased frequency on
existing longer distnce routes into LB and/or VIC, even before bringing
Thameslink into teh equation. As you say, Ken also wants this route for
Orbirail, so the objectors are going to have a lot of work on...
Paul
Is there any particular reason that the objecting people don't want to
travel via extended East London Line, and change at Canada water onto
the Jubilee line?

Because it will take half an hour longer?

That's not really true, and can be checked using Journey Planner quite
easily. The main issue with London Bridge is that if you are travelling
on to anywhere else other than the immediate vicinity, the interchange
penalty from train - Tube or vice versa is pretty high; 7 minutes is
what the Journey Planner offers, which is tight (particularly in the
outbound direction where you are aiming to catch a train that leaves
every 10-20 mins).

You can compare a bunch of journey times from New Cross Gate to key
destinations via both London Bridge and via the existing ELL service to
show why diverting people via the ELL is actually not a huge hardship
(for other stations on the ELLX, just add the appropriate amount of
minutes; and remember that the ELL service will be 8tph x 4 cars to
Sydenham plus another 4tph rail x 6-8 cars to London Bridge (i.e. up to
64 cars per hour) whereas the current rail service is up to 6tph x 6-8
cars (i.e. up to 48 cars per hour).

London Bridge: via ELL, 15 mins; via rail, 11 mins
Canary Wharf: via ELL, 12 mins; via rail, 22 mins
Victoria: via ELL, 29 mins; via rail, 31 mins
Charing Cross: via ELL, 26 mins (Canada Water / Waterloo); via rail, 25 mins
Oxford Circus: via ELL, 29 mins (via C Wtr / Bond St); via rail, 30 mins
(via L Bridge / Bond St)
Tottenham Court Road: via ELL, 29 mins (via C Wtr / Waterloo); via rail,
31 mins (via L Bridge / Bond St)
Bank: via ELL, 20 mins (via Shadwell); via rail, 22 mins (fast walk from
L Bridge)
Liverpool Street: via ELL, 19 mins; via rail, 31 mins (bus from L Bridge)
King's Cross: via ELL, 30 mins; via rail, 30 mins


Those times look very odd. I can't work them out. 11 minutes to go
one stop to London Bridge, but only 4 minutes more via the dog's leg
and changing? Is that meant to be the journey time to the Jubilee
platforms? Does the ELL go to Liverpool Street?

Trains to London Bridge were overcrowded before the Jubilee existed.
If the assumption is that the final destination is London Bridge, then
arriving at the deepest platforms via Canada Water is a much worse
option that just walking across the concourse from a direct, one-stop
train.

In practice, I don't think London Bridge is a very popular final
destination, but many people will want the Northern Line, the City or
Charing Cross. Only people travelling to Westminster, Bond Street etc
(fairly new journey options) will be relatively uninconvenienced.

In article .com,
(MIG) wrote:

Trains to London Bridge were overcrowded before the Jubilee existed.
If the assumption is that the final destination is London Bridge, then
arriving at the deepest platforms via Canada Water is a much worse
option that just walking across the concourse from a direct, one-stop
train.

In practice, I don't think London Bridge is a very popular final
destination, but many people will want the Northern Line, the City or
Charing Cross. Only people travelling to Westminster, Bond Street etc
(fairly new journey options) will be relatively uninconvenienced.

The point was made that there is a fair amount of direct traffic between
King's College Hospital, close to Denmark Hill station, and Guy's
Hospital, close to London Bridge.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

MIG wrote:
On Oct 28, 7:34 pm, Dave A wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 18 Oct, 12:41, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"lonelytraveller" wrote in
ooglegroups.com...
On 17 Oct, 18:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Its not easy to summarise, this RUS being 200 odd pages, but it looks
like
they want the capacity at the terminii to allow increased frequency on
existing longer distnce routes into LB and/or VIC, even before bringing
Thameslink into teh equation. As you say, Ken also wants this route for
Orbirail, so the objectors are going to have a lot of work on...
Paul
Is there any particular reason that the objecting people don't want to
travel via extended East London Line, and change at Canada water onto
the Jubilee line?
Because it will take half an hour longer?
That's not really true, and can be checked using Journey Planner quite
easily. The main issue with London Bridge is that if you are travelling
on to anywhere else other than the immediate vicinity, the interchange
penalty from train - Tube or vice versa is pretty high; 7 minutes is
what the Journey Planner offers, which is tight (particularly in the
outbound direction where you are aiming to catch a train that leaves
every 10-20 mins).

You can compare a bunch of journey times from New Cross Gate to key
destinations via both London Bridge and via the existing ELL service to
show why diverting people via the ELL is actually not a huge hardship
(for other stations on the ELLX, just add the appropriate amount of
minutes; and remember that the ELL service will be 8tph x 4 cars to
Sydenham plus another 4tph rail x 6-8 cars to London Bridge (i.e. up to
64 cars per hour) whereas the current rail service is up to 6tph x 6-8
cars (i.e. up to 48 cars per hour).

London Bridge: via ELL, 15 mins; via rail, 11 mins
Canary Wharf: via ELL, 12 mins; via rail, 22 mins
Victoria: via ELL, 29 mins; via rail, 31 mins
Charing Cross: via ELL, 26 mins (Canada Water / Waterloo); via rail, 25 mins
Oxford Circus: via ELL, 29 mins (via C Wtr / Bond St); via rail, 30 mins
(via L Bridge / Bond St)
Tottenham Court Road: via ELL, 29 mins (via C Wtr / Waterloo); via rail,
31 mins (via L Bridge / Bond St)
Bank: via ELL, 20 mins (via Shadwell); via rail, 22 mins (fast walk from
L Bridge)
Liverpool Street: via ELL, 19 mins; via rail, 31 mins (bus from L Bridge)
King's Cross: via ELL, 30 mins; via rail, 30 mins


Those times look very odd. I can't work them out. 11 minutes to go
one stop to London Bridge, but only 4 minutes more via the dog's leg
and changing? Is that meant to be the journey time to the Jubilee
platforms? Does the ELL go to Liverpool Street?

They're the timetabled times - about 11 mins (can vary between 9-13
mins) between departing NXG on a Southern service and arriving into the
terminus platforms at London Bridge. Try Journey Planner for an 0830
departure time from New Cross Gate to London Bridge. You'll get the 0836
train arriving 0846, and an 0837 Tube departure with a 5 min journey to
Canada Water, 3 minute interchange and 4 minutes to London Bridge.

Yes, it's the journey to the Jubilee platforms themselves so there is an
egress time not taken into consideration, but then again the egress from
the terminus platforms at London Bridge can also take some time given
the crowding at the gateline when an entire train empties out (let alone
two closely-timed arrivals).

No the ELL doesn't go to Liverpool Street but the route is fairly
straightforward, changing at Whitechapel to the H&C. (When the extension
opens, there will also be Shoreditch High Street station as an
alternative for anyone working north of Liverpool Street station itself.)

Trains to London Bridge were overcrowded before the Jubilee existed.
If the assumption is that the final destination is London Bridge, then
arriving at the deepest platforms via Canada Water is a much worse
option that just walking across the concourse from a direct, one-stop
train.

This is why I picked a variety of destinations including London Bridge -
to show that in practice, there isn't really a journey time penalty to
any destinations apart from London Bridge itself, because of the
difficulty of changing trains there and the slow onward rail connections.

So... if everyone who travels to the immediate vicinity of London Bridge
continues to use the (reduced) rail service, and everyone else uses the
higher-frequency London Overground service changing at Canada Water,
Shadwell or Whitechapel, the crowding problem doesn't seem quite as bad.

In practice, I don't think London Bridge is a very popular final
destination, but many people will want the Northern Line, the City or
Charing Cross. Only people travelling to Westminster, Bond Street etc
(fairly new journey options) will be relatively uninconvenienced.

This is exactly what I am proving above - very few people will be
inconvenienced because the journey times to other popular destinations
are remarkably similar via the ELL, mostly because the interchange at
London Bridge is lengthy. I deliberately used Bank in the City and
Charing Cross as examples - the journey times are different by only
about a minute.

When the Crossrail interchange at Whitechapel opens, journey times to
some destinations via the ELL will be even more attractive.