I've always found this group a great source of knowledge and
understanding of the more obscure corners of rail ticket regulations and
I seem to remember that I even once received thanks for an 'interesting
question'! So now I'm going to push my luck with a rather convoluted
query to see if you can still rise to the challenge - and whether you're
still enjoying my questions by the end!

Tomorrow, I'll have a cheap day return ticket from Crayford to London
terminals. The morning will be easy - I'll just go straight from
Crayford to London Bridge. My query relates to the evening.

I want to nip to Greenwich on the way home. I know a Cheap Day Return is
valid for break of journey; I also know that between about 10am and 4pm
it is possible to travel, via the loop line service, from London Bridge
to Crayford via Greenwich, so if I were travelling in the daytime then
presumably I could get off the loop train at Greenwich and get back on
it subsequently to go home.

However, I will be travelling in the evening. It is still *possible* to
get to Crayford via the Greenwich line, by changing at Dartford and
travelling back up the line to Crayford - what I like to call the
'virtual loop line' (since the loop line just cuts out the change at
Dartford by turning back on itself up the other line before it gets
there)!

Indeed, at times of the week when train services are less frequent, it's
not uncommon for National Rail Enquiries to suggest travelling away from
London and changing at Dartford among its options for getting to London
from Crayford. Does this mean it is a 'valid route' for a Cheap Day
Return? If so, does that mean I can travel to, and break my journey at,
Greenwich?

As a final twist, if you do break your journey at a particular station,
are you then obliged to resume your journey at that same station? For
instance, if I wanted to get home more quickly after calling at
Greenwich than by going to Dartford and back, could I nip on a DLR or
bus to Lewisham (paid for separately by Oyster of course) and get a
train directly to Crayford from there? Or would the fact that I broke my
journey earlier at Greenwich mean I had to resume it at Greenwich too?

Thanks for your attention, and in advance for any help!

Paul

On 23 Oct, 18:56, Paul Speller wrote:
I want to nip to Greenwich on the way home. I know a Cheap Day Return is
valid for break of journey; I also know that between about 10am and 4pm
it is possible to travel, via the loop line service, from London Bridge
to Crayford via Greenwich, so if I were travelling in the daytime then
presumably I could get off the loop train at Greenwich and get back on
it subsequently to go home.

Yes.

However, I will be travelling in the evening. It is still *possible* to
get to Crayford via the Greenwich line, by changing at Dartford and
travelling back up the line to Crayford - what I like to call the
'virtual loop line' (since the loop line just cuts out the change at
Dartford by turning back on itself up the other line before it gets
there)!

No. Following the Routeing Guide rules, the only permitted route is
direct via Lewisham and Sidcup (the shortest route), or via a direct
train.

Indeed, at times of the week when train services are less frequent, it's
not uncommon for National Rail Enquiries to suggest travelling away from
London and changing at Dartford among its options for getting to London
from Crayford. Does this mean it is a 'valid route' for a Cheap Day
Return?

The journey planner has no official authority to permit a non-
permitted route. Does the red "you need to buy two tickets" warning
appear?

If so, does that mean I can travel to, and break my journey at, Greenwich?

Not unless the train you get off and then on at Greenwich was London-
Crayford, no.

As a final twist, if you do break your journey at a particular station,
are you then obliged to resume your journey at that same station?

No, but it has to be further along a particular permitted route that
covers both legs. Switching from Lewisham to Greenwich wouldn't be
allowed.

(I'm assuming you want to follow the rules strictly. What the rules
say and what you can get away with are very different things)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 24 Oct, 00:08, Mr Thant
wrote:
No. Following the Routeing Guide rules, the only permitted route is
direct via Lewisham and Sidcup (the shortest route), or via a direct
train.

But that means retracing your route...which isn't strictly allowed.
You would have to continue your trip on a direct train. If you were
challenged twixt Greenwich & Lewisham, you'd get a penalty fare, or
excessed.

Indeed, at times of the week when train services are less frequent, it's
not uncommon for National Rail Enquiries to suggest travelling away from
London and changing at Dartford among its options for getting to London
from Crayford. Does this mean it is a 'valid route' for a Cheap Day
Return?

The journey planner has no official authority to permit a non-
permitted route. Does the red "you need to buy two tickets" warning
appear?

Have you noticed that tickets booked via the online NRE are now saying
that the ticket is valid for any journey displayed by the online
planner?

As a final twist, if you do break your journey at a particular station,
are you then obliged to resume your journey at that same station?

No, but it has to be further along a particular permitted route that
covers both legs. Switching from Lewisham to Greenwich wouldn't be
allowed.

Thanks very much for this fast and helpful answer!

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:08:25 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:

if I were travelling in the daytime then
presumably I could get off the loop train at Greenwich and get back on
it subsequently to go home.
Yes.

Good to know.

No. Following the Routeing Guide rules, the only permitted route is
direct via Lewisham and Sidcup (the shortest route), or via a direct
train.

That's interesting. I think on at least one occasion when there's been
rail works I've probably technically breached this - I needed to get my
bike into London, which wasn't going to happen on a rail replacement
bus, so I went down to Dartford and back up a different line to London,
on an all zones travelcard, which of course doesn't cover Dartford (one
of the sillier bits of drawing up of the zones IMHO but I'm sure there
were reasons for it! I'd always assumed this was due to Dartford being
outside Greater London but then I realised recently that in various
other areas Zone 6 extends into neighbouring counties). Hopefully
they'd've been understanding in the circumstances.

Indeed, at times of the week when train services are less frequent, it's
not uncommon for National Rail Enquiries to suggest travelling away from
London and changing at Dartford among its options for getting to London
from Crayford. Does this mean it is a 'valid route' for a Cheap Day
Return?
The journey planner has no official authority to permit a non-
permitted route. Does the red "you need to buy two tickets" warning
appear?

I haven't noticed it in the past but I've just searched now with a
forced 'via Dartford' option and it does indeed give that warning.

If so, does that mean I can travel to, and break my journey at, Greenwich?
Not unless the train you get off and then on at Greenwich was London-
Crayford, no.

I see. The upshot of this is that the loop line is even more of a useful
service than I'd realised! Shame they don't operate it outside that
narrow daytime period.

As a final twist, if you do break your journey at a particular station,
are you then obliged to resume your journey at that same station?
No, but it has to be further along a particular permitted route that
covers both legs. Switching from Lewisham to Greenwich wouldn't be
allowed.

Makes sense. This whole system is far more logical than I'd hoped

(I'm assuming you want to follow the rules strictly. What the rules
say and what you can get away with are very different things)

For the sake of a couple of 90p buses or whatever, I might as well play
by the rules. I wonder how the possible future change to zonal ticketing
(as opposed to zonal fares as at present) will affect all this - perhaps
they'll just kill off the concept of break of journey, since no such
thing can presumably exist in an Oyster PAYG context where you're
charged for leaving the system.

Thanks again for your help,

Paul

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007, Paul Speller wrote:

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:08:25 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:

No. Following the Routeing Guide rules, the only permitted route is
direct via Lewisham and Sidcup (the shortest route), or via a direct
train.

That's interesting. I think on at least one occasion when there's been
rail works I've probably technically breached this - I needed to get my
bike into London

And there was me thinking that that's what the pedals were for!

Seriously, though, how long would it have taken to cycle to, say, Slade
Green?

tom

--
Understand the world we're living in

Similarly,

Today I went from Epsom to Farrindon (I eas going to go via FCC at
Wimbledon), my ticket was to Farringdon Not Via Underground and cost £9.20

Except i missed my FCC connection so I stayed on the SWT train to Waterloo.

I went over the bridge to Waterloo East, to London Bridge and to
Farringdon on a different FCC train.

Was my ticket actually valid this route? I waved it at all and sundry
and they seeemed happy..

Where can I find out route validity for myself ...

mf

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:32:09 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:

Seriously, though, how long would it have taken to cycle to, say, Slade
Green?

I'm not very fit and was about to participate in the London Freewheel
event, and was travelling home that evening too late to go to Dartford
and back so was going to have to cycle home from Barnehurst (or Slade
Green but I knew the route from Barnehurst better).

I was therefore a bit worried that by the time I'd done the Freewheel
circuit a couple of times and still had to cycle home in the evening, my
lack of fitness would mean I'd really struggle on that final stretch, or
generally not enjoy the day's cycling as much if I'd already worn myself
out in the morning.

As it turned out, I was fitter than I feared and/or the Freewheel route
was much easier going than I'd imagined, so the extra cycle in the
morning probably wouldn't have had much effect on my enjoyment of the
event or my chances of making it home without a heart attack!

Short question, long answer, but the upshot is that in the absence of
both the loop line (as it was Sunday) and the direct line (as there were
rail works) the virtual loop line seemed a reasonable alternative and I
didn't realise I'd be breaching my ticket's conditions. I'm sure people
have done worse

Paul

P.S. Freewheel inspired my commuting wife to get a folding bike and cut
out a train change by cycling part of her route - to Slade Green, no
less - so, given that her cycling speed is similar to mine, I now know
that the short, literal answer to your question is 'about 20 minutes'

On 24 Oct, 21:03, Mystery Flyer wrote:
Today I went from Epsom to Farringdon (I eas going to go via FCC at
Wimbledon), my ticket was to Farringdon Not Via Underground and cost £9..20

Except i missed my FCC connection so I stayed on the SWT train to Waterloo.

I went over the bridge to Waterloo East, to London Bridge and to
Farringdon on a different FCC train.

Was my ticket actually valid this route? I waved it at all and sundry
and they seeemed happy..

Yes, I would expect that route to be valid for that ticket.....