But I'm afraid to say I disagree with your idea anyway. What your
proposal boils down to in essence is to use an Oyster as if it were a
cashless card system, and so use the PAYG balance to buy a ticket.
Instead I'd say that if you want a Day Travelcard you can just as well
buy it with cash or a debit/credit card.

The preferable situation would be for all lines in London to accept
Oyster PAYG, and then all passengers could benefit from daily price
capping (which is in a way akin to a Day Travelcard except you don't
have to plan ahead before you start travelling that day).

Of course there would still be the tricky issue of which route the
Oyster system presumed you had taken, regardless of what actual route
you did in fact take.

When Oyster was first launched, you could use the balance on the card
to make payments for any product at LUL ticket machines. I seem to
remember that this capability was withdrawn when Prepay was officially
launched. I suspect this was due to the e-money and "TfL as bank"
issues.

One thing that I've not seen mentioned on the group is that Thameslink
(sorry FCC!!) now accept Oyster PrePay at West Hampstead Thameslink,
so extending a whole one station further north. This certainly makes
sense given the interchange with the NLL (and Jubilee line). There are
posters at West Hampstead proclaiming the fact and it is mentioned on
their Website as well.

Andy wrote:

One thing that I've not seen mentioned on the group is that Thameslink
(sorry FCC!!) now accept Oyster PrePay at West Hampstead Thameslink,
so extending a whole one station further north. This certainly makes
sense given the interchange with the NLL (and Jubilee line). There are
posters at West Hampstead proclaiming the fact and it is mentioned on
their Website as well.

That's great news, I hadn't heard anything about that.

Previously there was the odd situation where LU printed tickets were
valid to West Hampstead Thameslink, but not Oyster PAYG. From West
Hampstead, FCC Thameslink can work out as a good alternative route
into town.

wrote:

On Nov 15, 1:16 am, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:

(big snip)

Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not
necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure
obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it
works for one-day travelcards.

But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price
capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product -
and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically
impossible to implement.

Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a
Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card?

OK, so you could pass through ticket gates a bit easier - not a good
enough reason.


So you don't have to arrive at Watford Junction at least half an hour
early for your train so you can buy a ticket. If you absolutely must
catch a particular train (e.g. you're catching a mainline train from
KX) then you need to allow 45 minutes. (Most of the time you get
served within about 15 mins but every now and again there is somebody
at the only window that is open planning their "lets visit every
mainline station in the UK" journey.

Sounds distinctly like a ticket selling problem at Watford Junction.
It really sounds as though London Midland need to pull their finder
out and provide better facilities here, like more staff and more
ticket machines.


I'd be happy if I could buy the ODTC online on my oyster ahead of
arriving at WJ. I wouldn't even mind if I couldn't use my PAYG balance
to pay for it. And if I do want to go out of the travelcard zones I
wouldn't mind getting charged the PAYG journey I've just made (i.e.
from start to finish, not boundary Z6 to finish). After all, at the
moment if I've got a paper travelcard and want to do that I'll have to
remember to use PAYG to enter otherwise I'll get the 4GBP unresolved
journey and no cap. With everything on oyster I can't forget to do
that.

I can see the problem for a Watfordite who might wish to travel out
from Watford Jn and return to Watford Met or indeed another Met line
station. As of January all the stations on the stopping line up to
Watford High Street will join the Met line extremities will in being
part of the zonal system (I'll post a new thread about this shortly) -
but Watford Jn will stay outside, presumably at the insistence of
London Midland who wish to protect their revenues (which might be a
bit better if they could manage to sell people tickets quickly!).


Infact, what I'd really like is to be able to put ANY ticket onto my
oyster. I'm going to Durham, I get my tickets sent through the post.
Why not just have them put on my oyster instead. Of course, this isn't
practical at the moment because neither the trains or the stations are
set up to handle oyster but that excuse doesn't hold for WJ.

Well, this will seemingly become possible in the new and exciting
world of smartcard ticketing. Many of the TOCs now have to provide for
ITSO based smartcard ticketing as part of their franchise agreement.


The only other thing I can think of is if you wanted to leave open the
possibility for making out-of-zone journeys and use AYG to pay for
them - i.e. someone buys a Z1&2 Day Travelcard on Oyster, and suddenly
later in the day decides they want to go out to Heathrow, so they can
and the excess is paid for via PAYG.

So someone decides to go around Z1&2 on their oyster and then suddenly
decides they want to go out to WJ. They can't buy a boundary Z2 to WJ
extension to use with a PAYG oyster.

In that scenario the person could go to H&W on a fast train, then
onwards from H&W to WJ on either a stopping London Overground service
or on a fast Southern train.

This all basically comes down to London Midland choosing not to accept
Oyster PAYG on their services between H&W and Watford Jn. But are lots
of TOCs who don't accept Oyster PAYG at all on their routes and so
passengers would encounter similar situations if they wanted to make a
spontaneous journey.

For example if someone who'd reached a Z1&2 PAYG daily cap on their
Oyster card suddenly decided they wanted to go to East Croydon,
Bromley South or Kingston upon Thames then they'd encounter
fundamentally the same situation . If they could have envisaged making
such a journey at the start of the travels, they'd have bought a Z1-6
Day Travelcard - however if it is a spontaneous decision they'd need
to buy a paper ticket.

At least in the case of a journey up to Watford Jn then a passenger
has the option of doing it all on Oyster PAYG, albeit via a slower
route (the Overground from H&W to WJ).


I don't understand why anybody would want to buy a Z1&2 day travelcard
on PAYG given that you already have that option (infact slightly
cheaper) by using price capping. The only thing I can think of that
would change there is that you wouldn't get a 4GBP fare if you didn't
touch in or out somewhere.

Well, I don't agree with your proposal for Day Travelcards on Oyster
but I do have to point out that a Z1&2 Day Travelcard is far from
being made obsolete by Oyster daily price capping - there are plenty
of rail routes (in particular in south London) in zones 1 and 2, and
hardly any accept Oyster PAYG. I wish they did, but they don't (yet!).
Hence a Z1&2 Day Travelcard will get you on all of them.


But I'm really only talking about people starting at WJ. People
starting at Watford High street through Hatch End will probably take
the DC line to H&W so oyster already works for them. I suppose WHS
people might decide to go North to WJ and then take the fast train
which presumably would be allowed if PAYG oyster was accepted on the
fast train but not with a WHS travelcard.

Tim.

Basically it principally sounds like there are two issues/problems -
(1) the poor ticket selling facilities at WJ, and (2) London Midland
refusing to accept Oyster PAYG from Watford Jn. Perhaps if enough
noise was made London Midland might manage to resolve at least one of
these.

The question of what happens if a passenger doubles-back when using
Oyster PAYG is an interesting one. This could happen if a passenger
travels north from Watford High St to WJ so they could catch the
Southern train to Clapham Jn. However I'd expect this to be charged
the same as a direct Watford High St to CJ journey as the system would
be unaware of whether the passenger had gone via WJ or not. The only
way this might not be the case is if there is a specific instruction
at WJ for pax transferring between LO and Southern to touch on a
reader, which sounds a bit complicated and hence unlikely.

Thus I agree, Watford High St to (say) Clapham Jn via WJ must surely
be regarded as a valid journey on Oyster PAYG, and if London Midland
started to accept Oyster PAYG would have to be regarded as a valid
journey too, whilst a Day Travelcard from Watford High St will mean
the passenger can't do this.

The question of doubling-back on Oyster PAYG (or indeed on printed
single tickets) has already existed on LU - for example Neasden pax
might decide to double-back to Wembley Park on the Jubilee so as to
catch a Met line train (and I'm sure a few people must do this). I
wonder whether that is actually allowed?

To address your ultimate point about Day Travelcards on Oyster, you
will not be surprised to hear I am very much unconvinced and remain
hostile to the idea! I can see it'd be useful in the specific case of
WJ, but overall it'd just add a lot of unneeded confusion and
complexity. There's no chance of it happening either - TfL are very
keen to push Oyster PAYG (and hence daily price capping) on to the
railways, and your proposal would counteract that effort.

I think I'm right in saying that Watford was one of the areas
considered for inclusion into the new Greater London area that was
created in 1965, and this was fought by proud Watfordians who didn't
want to get swallowed up into this behemoth. If it had been, then we
wouldn't have any of these problems about Watford Junction fares - so
perhaps you can blame those who made influenced and made this decision
back in the early 60's!

On Nov 15, 7:13 pm, Mizter T wrote:
I think I'm right in saying that Watford was one of the areas
considered for inclusion into the new Greater London area that was
created in 1965, and this was fought by proud Watfordians who didn't
want to get swallowed up into this behemoth. If it had been, then we
wouldn't have any of these problems about Watford Junction fares - so
perhaps you can blame those who made influenced and made this decision
back in the early 60's!

Watford wasn't in the Greater London proposed by the Herbert
Commission, no (or in the Royal Commission of 1923). The bits that
got excluded were mainly in the south-west - but also Cheshunt and
Chigwell.

--
Abi

time for some snipping

Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not
necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure
obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it
works for one-day travelcards.

But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price
capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product -
and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically
impossible to implement.

Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a
Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card?

Daily price capping is not in any sense equivalent to a day
travelcard, because it isn't valid for the same set of services. It's
really simple.

So, given that it's a totally different product for which a demand
remains, why on Earth shouldn't it be stored on an Oyster card?

Abigail Brady wrote:

On Nov 15, 7:13 pm, Mizter T wrote:
I think I'm right in saying that Watford was one of the areas
considered for inclusion into the new Greater London area that was
created in 1965, and this was fought by proud Watfordians who didn't
want to get swallowed up into this behemoth. If it had been, then we
wouldn't have any of these problems about Watford Junction fares - so
perhaps you can blame those who made influenced and made this decision
back in the early 60's!

Watford wasn't in the Greater London proposed by the Herbert
Commission, no (or in the Royal Commission of 1923). The bits that
got excluded were mainly in the south-west - but also Cheshunt and
Chigwell.

--
Abi

Thanks, and my apologies for spreading misinformation - I think I'll
actually find a copy of that report so I know what I'm talking about
next time!

It would appear that Watford was within the area of review - at least
the spectacularly authoritative source that is Wikipedia says so - but
of course it doesn't follow that they then recommended it for
inclusion in Greater London (the Wikipedia article is silent on that
matter), and indeed from what you say they didn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_C...eater_Lo ndon

I'm pretty confidant in saying that Epsom was originally in, but
stayed out in part at least as a result of local opposition.

On Nov 15, 8:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
It would appear that Watford was within the area of review - at least
the spectacularly authoritative source that is Wikipedia says so - but
of course it doesn't follow that they then recommended it for
inclusion in Greater London (the Wikipedia article is silent on that
matter), and indeed from what you say they didn't.

This is correct. Person who wrote that article is trustworthy and
working from actual sources. It does list the actual boroughs
proposed, which don't include Watford, but doesn't outright say that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_C...Government_in_...

I'm pretty confidant in saying that Epsom was originally in, but
stayed out in part at least as a result of local opposition.

Yes, indeed.

--
Abi

MIG wrote:

time for some snipping

Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not
necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure
obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it
works for one-day travelcards.

But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price
capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product -
and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically
impossible to implement.

Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a
Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card?

Daily price capping is not in any sense equivalent to a day
travelcard, because it isn't valid for the same set of services. It's
really simple.

Oyster price capping is _the_ daily ticketing product on Oyster, and
is one in which could be valid on all rail services in London if the
TOCs decided to make it so. That is what TfL wants - indeed it is what
passengers want, and as Oyster is TfL's system they decide what
tickets go on it and what don't. If Day Travelcards were to be offered
on Oyster it would destroy a whole part of the attraction of Oyster,
which is that you only pay for what you use until you reach a cap, and
would thus be going against their aim of getting all TOCs in London
onto accepting Oyster PAYG.

Plus it would be very confusing - it really would, and that is a
crucial point.


So, given that it's a totally different product for which a demand
remains, why on Earth shouldn't it be stored on an Oyster card?

But how would anyone benefit from this? The only difference would be
the ticket was on a smartcard as opposed to a bit of paper.

With Oyster PAYG, as long as you're not travelling on most National
Rail routes then you don't need to decide at the beginning of the day
where you are going - one of the great benefits of the system.

With Day Travelcards, the passenger has to consider when they buy
their ticket where they are going that day, and so they buy it for the
correct zones.

The idea that a Day Travelcard could then be combined with Oyster PAYG
is pretty absurd as it would be so complicated, and would lead to lots
more confusion as passengers got in a muddle over which routes they
could automatically extend their journey on (such as LU, DLR, LO and a
few NR routes) and which they couldn't (the majoroty of NR routes).

Yes, the same could be said for season Travelcards - but holders of
season Travelcards are far more likely to be acquainted with the
situation than holders of Day Travelcards - even so, there are plenty
of season Travelcard holders who get confused by the current
arrangement too.

The answer is simply to get Oyster PAYG accepted across National Rail
in London, rather than some unnecessary and confusing foray into
offering Day Travelcards on Oyster.

Seriously, how would the vast majority of Day Travelcard users benefit
from such a move, apart from having a ticket that goes "beep" when
they use it?

On 15 Nov, 21:16, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
time for some snipping

Refusing to put one-day travelcards on Oyster in general, not
necessarily by the means suggested above, seems to be pure
obstructiveness. If the argument works for period travelcards, it
works for one-day travelcards.

But the day ticketing product on an Oyster card is daily price
capping, whilst there is no weekly or monthly price capping product -
and as has been discussed before on here that would be practically
impossible to implement.

Please tell me what on earth would be gained by being able to load a
Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card?

Daily price capping is not in any sense equivalent to a day
travelcard, because it isn't valid for the same set of services. It's
really simple.

Oyster price capping is _the_ daily ticketing product on Oyster, and
is one in which could be valid on all rail services in London if the
TOCs decided to make it so. That is what TfL wants - indeed it is what
passengers want, and as Oyster is TfL's system they decide what
tickets go on it and what don't. If Day Travelcards were to be offered
on Oyster it would destroy a whole part of the attraction of Oyster,
which is that you only pay for what you use until you reach a cap, and
would thus be going against their aim of getting all TOCs in London
onto accepting Oyster PAYG.

Plus it would be very confusing - it really would, and that is a
crucial point.



So, given that it's a totally different product for which a demand
remains, why on Earth shouldn't it be stored on an Oyster card?

But how would anyone benefit from this? The only difference would be
the ticket was on a smartcard as opposed to a bit of paper.

With Oyster PAYG, as long as you're not travelling on most National
Rail routes then you don't need to decide at the beginning of the day
where you are going - one of the great benefits of the system.

With Day Travelcards, the passenger has to consider when they buy
their ticket where they are going that day, and so they buy it for the
correct zones.

The idea that a Day Travelcard could then be combined with Oyster PAYG
is pretty absurd as it would be so complicated, and would lead to lots
more confusion as passengers got in a muddle over which routes they
could automatically extend their journey on (such as LU, DLR, LO and a
few NR routes) and which they couldn't (the majoroty of NR routes).

Yes, the same could be said for season Travelcards - but holders of
season Travelcards are far more likely to be acquainted with the
situation than holders of Day Travelcards - even so, there are plenty
of season Travelcard holders who get confused by the current
arrangement too.

The answer is simply to get Oyster PAYG accepted across National Rail
in London, rather than some unnecessary and confusing foray into
offering Day Travelcards on Oyster.

Seriously, how would the vast majority of Day Travelcard users benefit
from such a move, apart from having a ticket that goes "beep" when
they use it?- Hide quoted text -


Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked, but my
question comes from logic. However, that logic has to be based on one
of two assumptions.

1) The main purpose of Oyster is to implement PAYG with capping.

2) The main purpose of Oyster is to store credit and ticketing
"products" and avoid paper.

People are constantly lectured, including by TfL, about assumption 1)
being incorrect and misusing the term "Oyster" as a synonym for PAYG.
However, your argument seems to be based on assumption 1). I had
always assumed 2) to be the case.

If 2) is correct, then my question about "why pick on one popular
product that has a very different use from PAYG and refuse to store it
on Oyster" is perfectly reasonable.

I think that your position is that, given that 1) is correct, storing
non-PAYG products on Oyster would cause confusion. However, it's
TfL's decision whether to recognise the shortcomings of NR TOCs or
simply to sulk about it and say "NR TOCs ought to accept Oyster so we
are going to pretend that they do".