umpston wrote:
On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ianigsy" wrote

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.
Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the
National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at
intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx
Peter

It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more
sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is
accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and
residents for that matter) to understand.

3-4 years ago a London "Overground Network" was launched with a few
photos in the local papers and some shiney but largely pointless branded
signage at National Rail stations. It is lucky it was so underwhelming
and soon fizzled out, else it would add to the confusion. I've a feeling
there are still some ON signs around, which won't help.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:


"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:50:21 +0000,
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:


"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

It's going to be a nightmare and people are going to get very confused
if that is the case. :-(

There are validators in the subway at the entrances to platforms 7 and 9
so it certainly seems that the long term intention is to enable oyster
to be used on the mainline trains from WJ. The only use for these
validators I can think of is for people coming from platform 11. I've
not noticed if there's a validator near the carpark entrance on platform
9. I'm assuming there will be validators near platforms 1-4 (if I
remember tomorrow I'll take a look) otherwise the ones in the subway
could also be for people changing from mainline to DC line at WJ - but
that seems crazy - people running for a train are bound to forget to
validate in the subway.

My current WJ-Euston season ticket was 2064GBP.

On a quick look at the current timetables the "best" PAYG route would
be:

07:40 depart WJ
07:56 arrive H&W
07:58 depart H&W on the train that departed WJ at 07:52 (so adding 12
minutes to the journey time)

This would cost 4:50 PAYG assuming WJ is in zone A like Watford (Met).

Assume return before 7pm and the daily return fare is 9GBP.

Assume 220 days and thats 1980GBP so very little in it.

I very rarely return before 7pm (and often depart before 7am) which
would reduce the fare to 6GBP/day or 1320GBP

(In this case the best route I can see would depart WJ at 06:20 joining
with the 06:38 WJ departure rather than the (non-stop) 06:42 departure
so 26 minutes longer - the 06:25 gets in at 06:46 so anyone doing this
is going to see two trains go past that they could have been on and
either have had more time in bed or more time in London)

It's going to become a game for people to either be close to the guard
when a train departs Euston (so they get their PAYG checked before H&W)
or far away from the guard when the train departs WJ so the guard
doesn't see them until after H&W. (and of course anybody who wants to do
this should make sure they get on a H&W stopping train and probably know
the arrival time of the DC line so they can claim they were in the
toilet to account for the timings ;-)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

On 6 Nov, 23:43, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:50:21 +0000,
Charles Ellson wrote:





On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

It's going to be a nightmare and people are going to get very confused
if that is the case. :-(

There are validators in the subway at the entrances to platforms 7 and 9
so it certainly seems that the long term intention is to enable oyster
to be used on the mainline trains from WJ. The only use for these
validators I can think of is for people coming from platform 11. I've
not noticed if there's a validator near the carpark entrance on platform
9. I'm assuming there will be validators near platforms 1-4 (if I
remember tomorrow I'll take a look) otherwise the ones in the subway
could also be for people changing from mainline to DC line at WJ - but
that seems crazy - people running for a train are bound to forget to
validate in the subway.

My current WJ-Euston season ticket was 2064GBP.

On a quick look at the current timetables the "best" PAYG route would
be:

07:40 depart WJ
07:56 arrive H&W
07:58 depart H&W on the train that departed WJ at 07:52 (so adding 12
minutes to the journey time)

This would cost 4:50 PAYG assuming WJ is in zone A like Watford (Met).

Assume return before 7pm and the daily return fare is 9GBP.

Assume 220 days and thats 1980GBP so very little in it.

I very rarely return before 7pm (and often depart before 7am) which
would reduce the fare to 6GBP/day or 1320GBP

(In this case the best route I can see would depart WJ at 06:20 joining
with the 06:38 WJ departure rather than the (non-stop) 06:42 departure
so 26 minutes longer - the 06:25 gets in at 06:46 so anyone doing this
is going to see two trains go past that they could have been on and
either have had more time in bed or more time in London)

It's going to become a game for people to either be close to the guard
when a train departs Euston (so they get their PAYG checked before H&W)
or far away from the guard when the train departs WJ so the guard
doesn't see them until after H&W. (and of course anybody who wants to do
this should make sure they get on a H&W stopping train and probably know
the arrival time of the DC line so they can claim they were in the
toilet to account for the timings ;-)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is plenty of talk about Oyster PAYG being available on London
Overground but very little in writing about the actual fares to be
charged for PAYG. The assumption seems to be that the fares will be
the same as those on the underground under PAYG. Is this actually the
case?

Looking at the single fare finder on the TfL website - some fares
appear to be set with connections via London Overground in mind, a
single from Richmond to Harrow & Wealdstone is £1.80 peak, £1.00 off-
peak. From Gunnersbury to Stonebridge Park, the fare is £1.00 at all
times. Given that these journeys aren't possible other than via Zone
1 on PAYG at the moment, I guess that underground level Oyster fares
will apply more generally. Interestingly, journeys to Highbury &
Islington, Blackhorse Road, Stratford etc are still at the "via Zone
1" level.

Can anyone explain which route justifies Harrow and Wealdstone to
Harrow-on-the-Hill being £1.00 at all times according to the fare
finder? Even if you go via Brondesbury post 11 November, it can't be
done without going from Zone 5 to Zone 5 via Zone 2.

Does the single fare finder work by matching up pairs of stations and
selecting a fare or by looking simply at the zones of the two
stations?


Jonathan

Can anyone explain which route justifies Harrow and Wealdstone to
Harrow-on-the-Hill being £1.00 at all times according to the fare
finder? Even if you go via Brondesbury post 11 November, it can't be
done without going from Zone 5 to Zone 5 via Zone 2.

Does the single fare finder work by matching up pairs of stations and
selecting a fare or by looking simply at the zones of the two
stations?



Kenton to Northwick Park is a valid "out-of-barrier" interchange, so
that is the intended route.

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:03:31 -0800, wrote:

Looking at the single fare finder on the TfL website - some fares
appear to be set with connections via London Overground in mind, a
single from Richmond to Harrow & Wealdstone is £1.80 peak, £1.00 off-
peak. From Gunnersbury to Stonebridge Park, the fare is £1.00 at all
times. Given that these journeys aren't possible other than via Zone
1 on PAYG at the moment, I guess that underground level Oyster fares
will apply more generally.

It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6
Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those
journeys using the NLL.

On Nov 7, 1:03 am, wrote:

There is plenty of talk about Oyster PAYG being available on London
Overground but very little in writing about the actual fares to be
charged for PAYG. The assumption seems to be that the fares will be
the same as those on the underground under PAYG. Is this actually the
case?

I can't believe that four days before going live they don't seem to
even have published what zones the extra stations are going to be in
on the Watford line.

I got an email yesterday to my oyster card address giving me a link
(to a strange domain that redirected to tfl.gov.uk) but that had no
more information than I've seen before.

Tim.

wrote in message
ps.com...

There is plenty of talk about Oyster PAYG being available on London
Overground but very little in writing about the actual fares to be
charged for PAYG. The assumption seems to be that the fares will be
the same as those on the underground under PAYG. Is this actually the
case?


I don't think so. I've just emailed them with that very question though.
Current evidence from NR's online planner is that London Overground is just
a change of TOC, and fares will be rail fares, not tube fares, with normal
point to point NR tickets remaining available.

Another pertinent point is that NR fares change in January. There could be
wholesale changes to do with the London Fare Zones (as they are described by
DfT) at that time, like there were in January 07.

Paul

On Nov 6, 11:43 pm, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:50:21 +0000,
Charles Ellson wrote:



On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

It's going to be a nightmare and people are going to get very confused
if that is the case. :-(


One more clue about possible acceptance of Oyster PAYG on Southern
services is the presence of Oyster PAYG validators on Platforms 2,16
and 17 at Clapham Junction (but not on the other platforms). Platforms
2 and 17 can be used by what will be the Overground trains (to / from
Willesden), but it would be very unusual to see a Metro train in
Platform 16, as the only access is via a shunt East (geographically) /
North (direction of the service) of the station. Any train undertaking
the shunt is likely to just run in service back in the Olympia
direction.

Also, within the zones, would Southern have any choice but to accept
PAYG, as I think that Silverlink would currently set the fares and if
they (as Overground) as setting the fares at PAYG Oyster levels, then
Southern would have no choice but to accept them. The acceptance (or
not) of PAYG to Watford Junction on Southern would just be the same as
PAYG for the London Midland services. As both are run by Govia, then
I'd imagine a common policy.

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:


"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

Paul