On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!


Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).


Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know
what they are.
--
Paul C

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).

Having a look at the advance info I have on LU fares (one day tickets)
for 2008 there are references to Zones 1-9 as well as 1-8W. There is no
explanation provided but 1-8W rates are highest so perhaps these
reference One Day tickets valid to Watford Junction. Interestingly there
is no LU fare to Z1-8W but there is for Z1-9. If "W" does mean Watford
then the single fare treatment makes sense as LU services won't reach
Watford Junction.

Quite how all of this is going to be explained to the public is going to
be an interesting exercise.

More interesting still is that I have yet to see anything about the
rates for Rail Zonal tickets. Tube-Train tickets or Travelcard season
rates. Something tells me they are still being negotiated as well as
whether there are any different PAYG rates for those lines which go PAYG
in Jan 2008 (One, FCC, C2C).

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

I had expected something to go live well before now. I had expected
something better than the current mess we are in with Silverlink
redirecting to London Midland but nothing for the Metro networks. Worse
still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is
out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious
problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being
possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network
Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make
it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort
this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on
one of their main routes.

--
Paul C

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

One simple issue I'm thinking of - London Overground appears, from the NR
perspective (they show its details on their site, and in terms of
timetabling and published fares), to be a part of National Rail. Whereas TfL
have previously used 'National Rail' as shorthand for 'not tube'. So are TfL
going to lump NR & LO together in their instructions, or not...

Paul S

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be
slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia
owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it
were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still,
pity the poor passenger!

I'm all in favour of having Oyster PAYG rolled out across the rail
network, but in a case such as this I can't help but feel that perhaps
it would make life easier for Southern to follow whatever London
Midland does between Watford Jn and H&W. It's one thing to expect pax
to differentiate between the fast trains and the stoppers at Watford
Jn, another for them to differentiate between one fast train and and
another fast train.


Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

Interesting stuff. One wonders if the term zones A-D will even appear
on customer facing literature - one hopes not as that would lead to
confusion (with people thinking a zones A-D Travelcard would be valid
when it won't be).

Having a look at the advance info I have on LU fares (one day tickets)
for 2008 there are references to Zones 1-9 as well as 1-8W. There is no
explanation provided but 1-8W rates are highest so perhaps these
reference One Day tickets valid to Watford Junction. Interestingly there
is no LU fare to Z1-8W but there is for Z1-9. If "W" does mean Watford
then the single fare treatment makes sense as LU services won't reach
Watford Junction.

I have to say I found the above somewhat befuddling until I'd mulled
it over for a bit.

Someone else with an inside track has already stated that zones A-D on
the extremities of the Metropolitan line are to become zones 7-9,
which would of course require some rationalisation (four zones into
three).

Perhaps this is how it'll work - there would be zones 7W and 8W which
would encompass Carpenders Park up to Watford Jn on the DC lines
stopping services (and perhaps, in the future, the London Midland
fasts when they come round to the idea!).

Meanwhile on the Met there would be the completely separate zones 7M,
8M and 9M.

Meanwhile in other areas of the home counties where the TOCs may opt
in to the Oyster PAYG system outside the London zones 1-6, other zone
suffixes could be used - for example zones 7G and 8G could encompass
c2c stations outside of the London zones 1-6 area out to Grays (c2c is
planning on accepting Oyster PAYG as far out as Grays from summer
2008).

If 'one' railway opts in to Oyster PAYG for, say as far as Shenfield
on the Great Eastern route, then perhaps there would be a zone 7S, and
a 7B (and maybe 8B) to encompass stations to Broxbourne (or even a
zone 7E - for East - that would encompass them both)

i.e. Such a zone naming scheme would preserve zones 1-6 as the core
London zones, and then further "out-boundary" *non-concentric* zones
could be added to extend the zonal system out into the home counties.

Anyway, that's just me speculating on how it could work.

It remains a bit of a shame that Watford Junction isn't going to
become part of the Met line zonal system (i.e. become part of zone A),
especially given the fact the Met's Watford station is in the same
town, albeit 15 (?) mins walk away from Watford Jn. But quite
predictable nonetheless. I think the TfL promotional map for London
Overground that showed Watford Jn as being in zone A certainly raised
some peoples hopes, which perhaps wasn't the best idea in retrospect.


Quite how all of this is going to be explained to the public is going to
be an interesting exercise.

Which is an *absolutely vital* issue. The design of any such ticketing
system should take this on board from the get-go.


More interesting still is that I have yet to see anything about the
rates for Rail Zonal tickets. Tube-Train tickets or Travelcard season
rates. Something tells me they are still being negotiated as well as
whether there are any different PAYG rates for those lines which go PAYG
in Jan 2008 (One, FCC, C2C).

Reading between the earlier press release from the Mayor's office
regarding next year's frozen LU and bus fares it certainly left wide
open the possibility that Travelcard fares were still being
negotiated.

Just to be clear to any other readers, 'one', FCC and c2c are all to
start accepting Oyster PAYG from all their stations within London
zones 1-6. c2c is the only TOC that would appear to have firm plans
for extending Oyster PAYG outside of zones 1-6 (though of course
London Overground will supposedly be accepting Oyster PAYG all the way
down from Watford Jn later on today).

The c2c press release concerning this is he
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668


All interesting developments. Presumably the TfL website's London
Overground section will go live tomorrow and answer some of these
questions.

I had expected something to go live well before now. I had expected
something better than the current mess we are in with Silverlink
redirecting to London Midland but nothing for the Metro networks. Worse
still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is
out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious
problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being
possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network
Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make
it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort
this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on
one of their main routes.

--
Paul C


I agree about the lack of information. At the very least the
Silverlink site should have displayed a splash screen with two options
- redirect to London Midland, or to London Overground. TfL could have
volunteered to host such a screen themselves.

However I do get the feeling that TfL wish to have a fairly low-key
start to London Overground, as the improvements will (obviously) be
incremental as opposed to overnight. In addition widely advertising
the future availability of Oyster PAYG, before it became valid, might
have led to people thinking PAYG was already good-to-go on the
Silverlink Metro lines and hence travelling ticketless, and also ended
up with unhappy people with costly unresolved journeys as a result of
them jumping the gun.

However it is a bit silly that on the day before LO takes over this
thread is alive with speculation as to how the Watford Junction PAYG
issue will be resolved. As I said earlier, this cannot have been
helped by the fact that the earlier promotional maps for LO placed
Watford Jn in zone A, which some people seemed to take as all the
confirmation they needed to presume this is how things would in fact
turn out.

Regarding the Gunnersbury Junction - I'd like to think that TfL will
be breathing down Network Rail's back pretty heavily to get this
sorted out, but of course the District line has been suffering at the
hands of this already. Perhaps there's an NR permanent way team there
right now trying to sort it out for tomorrow...

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote:


Paul Corfield wrote:


Worse
still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is
out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious
problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being
possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network
Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make
it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort
this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on
one of their main routes.

Regarding the Gunnersbury Junction - I'd like to think that TfL will
be breathing down Network Rail's back pretty heavily to get this
sorted out, but of course the District line has been suffering at the
hands of this already. Perhaps there's an NR permanent way team there
right now trying to sort it out for tomorrow...

Having seen the daily report about this incident I must apologise to
Network Rail. The root cause of the problem is cable theft and therefore
not an asset failure. Obviously they are working hard to get services
restored.

That'll teach me to make assumptions :-(
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote:


Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be
slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia
owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it
were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still,
pity the poor passenger!

http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461

confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham
Junctions.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be
slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia
owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it
were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still,
pity the poor passenger!

http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461

confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham
Junctions.
--
Paul C


Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging
that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have
provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of
PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line
diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite
different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London
Overground.

As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing
communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from
Watford Junction.

I note this bit in the text:
"Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if
you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or
intermediate stations."

I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham
Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now
good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham
Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved
journeys.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:38:44 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461

confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham
Junctions.

Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging
that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have
provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of
PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line
diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite
different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London
Overground.

I think Southern are actually quite enthusiastic about PAYG. There was
supposed to be a pilot acceptance of PAYG between Victoria and Balham on
their services but it didn't come off. That would have been similar to
the One situation of Liverpool St - Walthamstow C / Seven Sisters /
Tottenham Hale.

It's entirely right that they've taken the time to explain the new
acceptance and to get it right on day one.

As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing
communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from
Watford Junction.

I note this bit in the text:
"Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if
you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or
intermediate stations."

I have not been to Clapham Junction for a very long time but reports
elsewhere on uk.railway have said there are validators at each of the
relevant platforms for the Southern / Overground service. Presumably
these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while
the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been
modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from
Clapham (for exit validation).

I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham
Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now
good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham
Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved
journeys.

To be fair Mizter T there could always be problems where you have
partial acceptance of a product on limited stretches of line. However
that should not stop people making the effort to get parts of the
network working. From my limited observations there seems to be no
problem with people adjusting to the idea between Liverpool St and
Walthamstow Central. People going on the train touch the validators as
necessary and that's that. There is only an issue where people are
touched in and the service is suspended and they then head downstairs to
go by tube. The LU staff are now adept at getting people through without
a double touch in.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield writes:

Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other
lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have
presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG
destinations from Clapham (for exit validation).

Would that not be too much checking for the gates, as it would have been
possible to have travelled from almost anywhere on the Underground
network to the Bakerloo line and thence on the DC lines to Watford
Junction and then to Clapham Junction - all without having to touch out
and in again when changing.

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:38:44 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461

confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham
Junctions.

Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging
that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have
provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of
PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line
diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite
different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London
Overground.

I think Southern are actually quite enthusiastic about PAYG. There was
supposed to be a pilot acceptance of PAYG between Victoria and Balham on
their services but it didn't come off. That would have been similar to
the One situation of Liverpool St - Walthamstow C / Seven Sisters /
Tottenham Hale.

Yes, I remember the Balham - Victoria trial trial that never happened
(probably because I read your posts about it!).

Southern have been pricing their fares on a zonal basis since January
2005, which can be seen to support your notion that they're favourable
towards PAYG. Acceptance would certainly be a popular move south of
the river.


It's entirely right that they've taken the time to explain the new
acceptance and to get it right on day one.

Of course it is - I'm just a bit surprised they have!


As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing
communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from
Watford Junction.

I note this bit in the text:
"Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if
you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or
intermediate stations."

I have not been to Clapham Junction for a very long time but reports
elsewhere on uk.railway have said there are validators at each of the
relevant platforms for the Southern / Overground service. Presumably
these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while
the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been
modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from
Clapham (for exit validation).

As I say in a post elsewhere I'd expect those exiting Clapham Jn
without a valid touch-in to just be 'fined' the £4 "maximum cash fare"
as happens elsewhere on the LU network (or maybe even £5 as applies at
National Rail termini) . Perhaps this won't be the case, and thus the
card will be rejected and the passenger will have to explain
themselves.


I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham
Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now
good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham
Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved
journeys.

To be fair Mizter T there could always be problems where you have
partial acceptance of a product on limited stretches of line. However
that should not stop people making the effort to get parts of the
network working. From my limited observations there seems to be no
problem with people adjusting to the idea between Liverpool St and
Walthamstow Central. People going on the train touch the validators
as necessary and that's that.

I absolutely agree with your sentiments. Apart from anything else
getting it working on some routes might well chivvy the TOCs into
adopting it on their other routes.

I would just point out that the Walthamstow example you give is
somewhat different to Clapham Jn, as the predominant flow at
Walthamstow is to/from central London. At Clapham Jn the passengers
flows are going in all directions, in particular to/from Waterloo and
Victoria - routes where PAYG will not be valid.

I think I'll be going through Clapham Jn this week so I'll take a look
at how well publicised the situation is there, and maybe quiz the
staff on the gate. Though I do feel for them as I expect there will
inevitably be a significant level of confusion (and annoyance if the
£4 max cash fare 'penalty' for unresolved journeys is charged).

I've stated many times before the odd situation at London Bridge where
PAYG is valid on the FCC Thameslink route but only northbound and only
as far as Kentish Town. The gates don't recognise PAYG at all, instead
one must ask to be let through the manual gate and touch-in or out on
the Oyster reader on the Thameslink platforms. I'm sure this only
works because the number of people who'll enter London Bridge station
wishing to travel on Thameslink as opposed to the Northern line (or
vice versa) must be minuscule.

There is only an issue where people are
touched in and the service is suspended and they then head downstairs to
go by tube. The LU staff are now adept at getting people through without
a double touch in.

OOI how do they handle this?

And does a double touch-in matter? I'm not sure it is necessarily a
problem. I've touched in twice before, when I thought absent mindedly
I might have gone through the gates on someone elses ticket at rush
hour, so I touched-in on the reader by the manual gate - in fact
originally I'd touched in correctly, but the double touch-in didn't
seem to cause any problems (though this might have been because I'd
reached a daily cap, I can't remember). I can easily try doing this
again soon by touching-in (or indeed out) twice as I pass through
Highbury & Islington station, as there are readers on the Vic line
platforms as well as ticket gates.

If the double touch-in does cause problems could not the Oyster
readers on the 'one' platforms and on the LU gates be configured so as
to tolerate this?