On Nov 12, 10:59 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter


So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:
On Nov 12, 10:59 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter

So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

On Nov 13, 11:27 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:


So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).


That would seem a little eccentric, wouldn't it? The change must
surely be happening with one eye on bringing more stations in,
otherwise it's a lot of expense for a purely cosmetic change.

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!


That's not a bad idea. It would allow TOCs to keep some control over
fares, while giving out of towners some of the benefits of the
travelcard system.

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

Quite.

Jonn

On Nov 13, 11:45 am, wrote:
On Nov 13, 11:27 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:

So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).

That would seem a little eccentric, wouldn't it? The change must
surely be happening with one eye on bringing more stations in,
otherwise it's a lot of expense for a purely cosmetic change.

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!

That's not a bad idea. It would allow TOCs to keep some control over
fares, while giving out of towners some of the benefits of the
travelcard system.

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

Quite.

Jonn

When I bought my ticket from Harrow & Wealdstone this morning, there
was a tube map stuck to the top of the machine with zones 7, 8 and 9
shown on it. It was relatively small though, and there was a queue, so
all I managed to see was what was already confirmed, namely that Hatch
End is in 6, Carpenders Park in 7, Bushey and Watford HS in 8, and
Watford Junction in 9. I still think it's almost criminal that zone 6
is so narrow around those parts...Carpenders Park should be in 6, if
indeed not Bushey as Moor Park and West Ruislip somehow manage it.

I'll see if I can spot anything else of use this evening.

On 13 Nov, 12:32, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Nov 13, 11:45 am, wrote:

On Nov 13, 11:27 am, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

Quite.

Jonn

When I bought my ticket from Harrow & Wealdstone this morning, there
was a tube map stuck to the top of the machine with zones 7, 8 and 9
shown on it. It was relatively small though, and there was a queue, so
all I managed to see was what was already confirmed, namely that Hatch
End is in 6, Carpenders Park in 7, Bushey and Watford HS in 8, and
Watford Junction in 9. I still think it's almost criminal that zone 6
is so narrow around those parts...Carpenders Park should be in 6, if
indeed not Bushey as Moor Park and West Ruislip somehow manage it.

I'll see if I can spot anything else of use this evening.


Perhaps I haven't been following things closely enough but I wasn't
aware that the zonal changes up to Watford Junction had in fact been
confirmed - though this map you've seen would appear to confirm it.

That'd appear to put paid to my elaborate fantasy plan of having
lettered zone suffixes (zone 9M, 7G and so on - described upthread)!

Zones 7-9 thus appear to be a new device so as to include the Watford
Junction line into the zonal system - so whilst the original
speculation that it might be included in zone A isn't accurate, it
will join the zonal system albeit in a slightly different manner.

Regarding the thinness of zone 6 - there used to be only 5 zones, but
AIUI the sixth was created largely because of pressure from Network
SouthEast (as was). The logic behind this move is explained in chapter
10 of the 1991 Monopolies and Mergers Commission report on London
Underground...

-----
source (PDF):
http://www.competition-commission.or...ext/305c10.pdf
-----
10.15. The outer boundary of Zone 5 reflected the old GLC area. The
zone extended considerably further from Central London in some
directions than others. This was of particular concern to NSE as it
meant that fares on some of its radial routes from points at or just
outside the Zone 5 boundary had to be held down below their normal
level related to mileage from the Central London terminal because of
the need to relate fares to the standard all-zones Travelcard. In the
January 1991 fares increase the opportunity was taken to split Zone 5
into two zones, thereby creating a Zone 6. Fares from stations in Zone
6 to other zones were increased by slightly more than fares from Zone
5. The current fares structure is summarised in Table 10.1.
-----


In the past the logic for including stations that fall outside of
Greater London in the 6 zones has apparently been because they serve
communities that fall within the Greater London boundary. With regards
to the early 90's change to Zone 6 so that it stretches up to Epping
on the Central line, this is reputedly because Essex County Council
agreed to contribute a sum of money towards LUL (I don't know whether
they still do so).

However the more recent changes along the southern periphery don't
follow this logic. Perhaps the TOC in question (Southern and for one
station SWT) doesn't get an extra slice of the Travelcard cake simply
as a result of extending the zones (i.e. Greater London money isn't
being spent on supporting services outside of Greater London), but
instead the TOC is possibly relying on bringing in more revenue by
means of increased ticket sales from these stations.

Various pronouncements certainly suggest that it is the DfT who is
ultimately responsible for sanctioning any changes to the zones (such
as any extensions to zone 6), at least as far as National Rail routes
are concerned - though presumably there is a degree of interplay with
Transport for London as well.

All of the above could of course be a load of cobblers. I'd be very
interested to know more about how the zoning of London actually works
though, if anyone knows.

There has been much discussion about Oyster on the DC line etc, but
has there been any change to the blank ticket stock use in LOs newly
acquired ticket offices yet?
--
Stuart Johnson in Peterhead, Scotland
To reply direct remove FILTER from

"Stuart Johnson" wrote in message
...

There has been much discussion about Oyster on the DC line etc, but
has there been any change to the blank ticket stock use in LOs newly
acquired ticket offices yet?

There shouldn't need to be:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...avel-guide.pdf

"London Overground is part of the National Rail network and the National
Rail Conditions of
Carriage apply for journeys made on it unless we say otherwise in this
ticketing and travel guide."

Paul S

"Ar" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:58:00 -0800, Mizter T scribed:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ils/article.do

Thousands of rail commuters face a huge rise in the cost of season
tickets, the Standard can reveal.

Some travellers could pay as much as £600 more for an annual pass,
campaigners claim.

From 2010 the cost of a season ticket will be based on which zone the
starting station is in rather than its distance from the central
London terminus.


That's what you get for voting Red Ken.

Its a classic case of 'be careful what you wish for'.

Possibly led by the Evening Standard there has been a clamour for Oyster on
National Rail throughout the London area. In some quarters they even think
PAYG could be extended to the whole country (the £400 touch in scenario).
The article hypes up a possible down side now after all the years of pushing
the wonders of Oyster...

Paul S

On 13 Nov, 19:39, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Ar" wrote in message:

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:58:00 -0800, Mizter T scribed:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...-details/artic...

Thousands of rail commuters face a huge rise in the cost of season
tickets, the Standard can reveal.

Some travellers could pay as much as £600 more for an annual pass,
campaigners claim.

From 2010 the cost of a season ticket will be based on which zone the
starting station is in rather than its distance from the central
London terminus.

That's what you get for voting Red Ken.

Its a classic case of 'be careful what you wish for'.

Possibly led by the Evening Standard there has been a clamour for Oyster on
National Rail throughout the London area. In some quarters they even think
PAYG could be extended to the whole country (the £400 touch in scenario).
The article hypes up a possible down side now after all the years of pushing
the wonders of Oyster...

Paul S

However (a) I don't trust the figures given in the article and (b) I
don't really have a problem with the idea of zonally priced rail-only
season tickets.

It is however an interesting democratic exercise to consider where the
accountability for this decision lies. It is the DfT's decision - so
it is a central government decision, and thus any complaints should be
directed towards them or your MP. However I'm sure the DfT would say
that TfL and the Mayor have been pushing for this change, which I'm
sure is true. So one could complain to the Mayor and ask one of your
assembly members to take it up with him. Though ultimately it is not
the decision of TfL or the Mayor to take - it is a central government
matter, handled by the DfT.

Paul Scott wrote:
"Ar" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:58:00 -0800, Mizter T scribed:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ils/article.do

Thousands of rail commuters face a huge rise in the cost of season
tickets, the Standard can reveal.

Some travellers could pay as much as £600 more for an annual pass,
campaigners claim.

From 2010 the cost of a season ticket will be based on which zone the
starting station is in rather than its distance from the central
London terminus.

That's what you get for voting Red Ken.

Its a classic case of 'be careful what you wish for'.

Possibly led by the Evening Standard there has been a clamour for Oyster on
National Rail throughout the London area. In some quarters they even think
PAYG could be extended to the whole country (the £400 touch in scenario).
The article hypes up a possible down side now after all the years of pushing
the wonders of Oyster...

The Evening Standard probably considers z1-6 to *be* the whole country,
with Amersham being a sort of Tristan da Cunha.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK