Mizter T wrote:


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket
between the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to
them it costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the
staff seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it
must be pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a
bit of a validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm
keeping quiet on that one :-)

The main thing that the report lacks clarity on is whether rail-only
season tickets are to be withdrawn completely and commuters moved over
on to Travelcard seasons, or whether rail-seasons might continue to
exist, albeit priced on a zonal basis.

A couple of years or so ago they abolished single zone annual seasons,
so anyone needing say a z5 annual travelcard had to get a z4-5 (or z5-6)
instead, which meant a massive increase in price. At that point I
switched to a point-to-point rail only season instead. A single zone
travelcard was worth the extra cost for the "free" bus and tram use, but
a two-zone travelcard was so much more expensive it was only worthwhile
for very frequent travellers.

Reading between the lines the report would appear to presume the
former course of action - i.e. withdrawal of rail-only season tickets
altogether.

OTOH, if the Evening Standard reported that the moon was made of rock, I
would get a second opinion from a cheese expert.

I say this because it states that a Surbiton to London
annual season ticket would rise in price by £630 to £1800. AFAICS the
current price of a rail-only season ticket is £1280, whilst the
current price of a zone 1-6 ticket (Surbiton being on zone 6) is £1720
- that's actually a price difference of £440 at current prices, so
perhaps the Standard calculator is broken, they know next years fares
already, or I'm stupid and have got it all wrong.

Nevertheless given this price difference the presumption in the
article is that rail-only season tickets will go. I wonder if this has
a basis in fact or not? It'd certainly be a very controversial move,
given that many rail-only commuters would end up paying more. The
counter argument to any grumbles from rail commuters could be to
compare the situation with that which Underground commuters encounter
- they already have to pay up for a season Travelcard, as there aren't
Underground-only season tickets these days (and haven't been for a
long while).



--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 12 Nov, 20:06, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket
between the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to
them it costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the
staff seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it
must be pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a
bit of a validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm
keeping quiet on that one :-)

I believe Southern have been pricing all their tickets, season or
otherwise, on a zonal basis since January 2005. When I realised that's
what they were doing I certainly saw the potential for doing exactly
what you do - i.e. making the most of your money by getting in as much
trackage on your season ticket as possible.

If such zonal pricing is adopted on a London-wide basis I'd expect
many other people to clock on to this possibility as well!

Regarding routes in south London - there is certainly a lot of
potential for getting as much "extra validity" as possible when it
comes to choosing a season ticket. I have to say you have piqued my
interest with whatever cunning scheme you've come up with! (So please
feel free to email me off-group to share it on a totally confidential
basis!)


The main thing that the report lacks clarity on is whether rail-only
season tickets are to be withdrawn completely and commuters moved over
on to Travelcard seasons, or whether rail-seasons might continue to
exist, albeit priced on a zonal basis.

A couple of years or so ago they abolished single zone annual seasons,
so anyone needing say a z5 annual travelcard had to get a z4-5 (or z5-6)
instead, which meant a massive increase in price. At that point I
switched to a point-to-point rail only season instead. A single zone
travelcard was worth the extra cost for the "free" bus and tram use, but
a two-zone travelcard was so much more expensive it was only worthwhile
for very frequent travellers.

Yes. There wasn't a great deal of complaint about that change, less so
than I would have thought. I guess that the number of people who
previously had a single zone Travelcard was perhaps not that great. Of
course for some people PAYG has become an option worth considering
even for commuting purposes.


Reading between the lines the report would appear to presume the
former course of action - i.e. withdrawal of rail-only season tickets
altogether.

OTOH, if the Evening Standard reported that the moon was made of rock, I
would get a second opinion from a cheese expert.


Well, they need to sell their papers somehow I suppose. But one does
become somewhat accustomed to the shock horror Evening Standard
headline that transmutes overnight into something far milder by the
time it reaches the morning papers!

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
...
Mizter T wrote:


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket between
the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to them it
costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the staff
seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it must be
pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a bit of a
validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm keeping quiet
on that one :-)


Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

Paul S

Paul Scott wrote:

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
...
Mizter T wrote:


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket between
the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to them it
costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the staff
seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it must be
pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a bit of a
validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm keeping quiet
on that one :-)


Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

Paul S

I presume Southern must have pushed for the 2006 changes which led to
a significant extension of zone 6 - and it wasn't just the Tattenham
Corner line, see this 2005 thread that I started for the details -
"Zone 6 conquers ten further Southern stations".

In January 2007 Ewell West and Ewell East also came into the Zone 6
fold, which led to the next station along from Ewell West, Stoneleigh,
being shunted in to Zone 5, despite the fact it's in Surrey rather
than Greater London - though Chigwell on the Central line is in Zone 4
yet in Essex.

I'd be interested to know what the actual process is for making
changes to the London zonal system. The TOCs generally appear to claim
that the DfT is the final arbiter, but I'd imagine that TfL gets a say
in it as well. Does anyone know for certain how it works?

"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter

On Nov 12, 10:59 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter


So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:
On Nov 12, 10:59 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter

So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

On Nov 13, 11:27 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:


So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).


That would seem a little eccentric, wouldn't it? The change must
surely be happening with one eye on bringing more stations in,
otherwise it's a lot of expense for a purely cosmetic change.

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!


That's not a bad idea. It would allow TOCs to keep some control over
fares, while giving out of towners some of the benefits of the
travelcard system.

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

Quite.

Jonn

On Nov 13, 11:45 am, wrote:
On Nov 13, 11:27 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:

So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).

That would seem a little eccentric, wouldn't it? The change must
surely be happening with one eye on bringing more stations in,
otherwise it's a lot of expense for a purely cosmetic change.

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!

That's not a bad idea. It would allow TOCs to keep some control over
fares, while giving out of towners some of the benefits of the
travelcard system.

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

Quite.

Jonn

When I bought my ticket from Harrow & Wealdstone this morning, there
was a tube map stuck to the top of the machine with zones 7, 8 and 9
shown on it. It was relatively small though, and there was a queue, so
all I managed to see was what was already confirmed, namely that Hatch
End is in 6, Carpenders Park in 7, Bushey and Watford HS in 8, and
Watford Junction in 9. I still think it's almost criminal that zone 6
is so narrow around those parts...Carpenders Park should be in 6, if
indeed not Bushey as Moor Park and West Ruislip somehow manage it.

I'll see if I can spot anything else of use this evening.