"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
...
Mizter T wrote:


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket between
the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to them it
costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the staff
seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it must be
pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a bit of a
validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm keeping quiet
on that one :-)


Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

Paul S

Paul Scott wrote:

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
...
Mizter T wrote:


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket between
the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to them it
costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the staff
seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it must be
pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a bit of a
validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm keeping quiet
on that one :-)


Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

Paul S

I presume Southern must have pushed for the 2006 changes which led to
a significant extension of zone 6 - and it wasn't just the Tattenham
Corner line, see this 2005 thread that I started for the details -
"Zone 6 conquers ten further Southern stations".

In January 2007 Ewell West and Ewell East also came into the Zone 6
fold, which led to the next station along from Ewell West, Stoneleigh,
being shunted in to Zone 5, despite the fact it's in Surrey rather
than Greater London - though Chigwell on the Central line is in Zone 4
yet in Essex.

I'd be interested to know what the actual process is for making
changes to the London zonal system. The TOCs generally appear to claim
that the DfT is the final arbiter, but I'd imagine that TfL gets a say
in it as well. Does anyone know for certain how it works?

"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter

On Nov 12, 10:59 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter


So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:
On Nov 12, 10:59 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter

So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

On Nov 13, 11:27 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:


So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).


That would seem a little eccentric, wouldn't it? The change must
surely be happening with one eye on bringing more stations in,
otherwise it's a lot of expense for a purely cosmetic change.

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!


That's not a bad idea. It would allow TOCs to keep some control over
fares, while giving out of towners some of the benefits of the
travelcard system.

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

Quite.

Jonn

On Nov 13, 11:45 am, wrote:
On Nov 13, 11:27 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 13 Nov, 10:04, wrote:

So, will the arrival of zones 7-9 make it harder for out-of-boundary
stations to get into zone 6?

Jonn

Nothing is clear as of yet with regards to that change. It is possible
that zones 7-9 will just cover the Metropolitan line zones A-D - i.e.
there will no longer be zones A-D, but 7-9 instead (obviously with
some rationalisation).

That would seem a little eccentric, wouldn't it? The change must
surely be happening with one eye on bringing more stations in,
otherwise it's a lot of expense for a purely cosmetic change.

However there is, I suppose, the possibility that zones 7-9 will be
available for those TOCs who wish to opt-in to the Oyster PAYG system
- such as c2c is doing by summer next year - see:
http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/templates/NewsArticle.aspx?id=668

This is just pure speculation however, not least because TOCs on one
side of London may well want to set different prices to TOCs on the
other side.

The only other thought I cam up with is that the current A-D lettered
zones are being got rid of so that letters can be used in a different
way in new Home Counties zones - e.g. the Met line will have zones 7M,
8M and 9M, whilst c2c out to Grays might use 7G and 8G. This is purely
a product of my imagination though!

That's not a bad idea. It would allow TOCs to keep some control over
fares, while giving out of towners some of the benefits of the
travelcard system.

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

Quite.

Jonn

When I bought my ticket from Harrow & Wealdstone this morning, there
was a tube map stuck to the top of the machine with zones 7, 8 and 9
shown on it. It was relatively small though, and there was a queue, so
all I managed to see was what was already confirmed, namely that Hatch
End is in 6, Carpenders Park in 7, Bushey and Watford HS in 8, and
Watford Junction in 9. I still think it's almost criminal that zone 6
is so narrow around those parts...Carpenders Park should be in 6, if
indeed not Bushey as Moor Park and West Ruislip somehow manage it.

I'll see if I can spot anything else of use this evening.

On 13 Nov, 12:32, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Nov 13, 11:45 am, wrote:

On Nov 13, 11:27 am, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

If anyone does have any knowledge of this upcoming change to zones 7-9
please do feel free to share it!

Quite.

Jonn

When I bought my ticket from Harrow & Wealdstone this morning, there
was a tube map stuck to the top of the machine with zones 7, 8 and 9
shown on it. It was relatively small though, and there was a queue, so
all I managed to see was what was already confirmed, namely that Hatch
End is in 6, Carpenders Park in 7, Bushey and Watford HS in 8, and
Watford Junction in 9. I still think it's almost criminal that zone 6
is so narrow around those parts...Carpenders Park should be in 6, if
indeed not Bushey as Moor Park and West Ruislip somehow manage it.

I'll see if I can spot anything else of use this evening.


Perhaps I haven't been following things closely enough but I wasn't
aware that the zonal changes up to Watford Junction had in fact been
confirmed - though this map you've seen would appear to confirm it.

That'd appear to put paid to my elaborate fantasy plan of having
lettered zone suffixes (zone 9M, 7G and so on - described upthread)!

Zones 7-9 thus appear to be a new device so as to include the Watford
Junction line into the zonal system - so whilst the original
speculation that it might be included in zone A isn't accurate, it
will join the zonal system albeit in a slightly different manner.

Regarding the thinness of zone 6 - there used to be only 5 zones, but
AIUI the sixth was created largely because of pressure from Network
SouthEast (as was). The logic behind this move is explained in chapter
10 of the 1991 Monopolies and Mergers Commission report on London
Underground...

-----
source (PDF):
http://www.competition-commission.or...ext/305c10.pdf
-----
10.15. The outer boundary of Zone 5 reflected the old GLC area. The
zone extended considerably further from Central London in some
directions than others. This was of particular concern to NSE as it
meant that fares on some of its radial routes from points at or just
outside the Zone 5 boundary had to be held down below their normal
level related to mileage from the Central London terminal because of
the need to relate fares to the standard all-zones Travelcard. In the
January 1991 fares increase the opportunity was taken to split Zone 5
into two zones, thereby creating a Zone 6. Fares from stations in Zone
6 to other zones were increased by slightly more than fares from Zone
5. The current fares structure is summarised in Table 10.1.
-----


In the past the logic for including stations that fall outside of
Greater London in the 6 zones has apparently been because they serve
communities that fall within the Greater London boundary. With regards
to the early 90's change to Zone 6 so that it stretches up to Epping
on the Central line, this is reputedly because Essex County Council
agreed to contribute a sum of money towards LUL (I don't know whether
they still do so).

However the more recent changes along the southern periphery don't
follow this logic. Perhaps the TOC in question (Southern and for one
station SWT) doesn't get an extra slice of the Travelcard cake simply
as a result of extending the zones (i.e. Greater London money isn't
being spent on supporting services outside of Greater London), but
instead the TOC is possibly relying on bringing in more revenue by
means of increased ticket sales from these stations.

Various pronouncements certainly suggest that it is the DfT who is
ultimately responsible for sanctioning any changes to the zones (such
as any extensions to zone 6), at least as far as National Rail routes
are concerned - though presumably there is a degree of interplay with
Transport for London as well.

All of the above could of course be a load of cobblers. I'd be very
interested to know more about how the zoning of London actually works
though, if anyone knows.