ThisIsLondon / the Evening Standard have the following story of
interest, of which there is an extract below. Unfortunately the story
isn't precise on what the plans are to be - so I'll add my own
comments underneath the quoted text.

-----
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ils/article.do
-----
*Cost of season tickets to soar under new system*
Jason Beattie, Chief Political Correspondent - 12.11.07

Thousands of rail commuters face a huge rise in the cost of season
tickets, the Standard can reveal.

Some travellers could pay as much as £600 more for an annual pass,
campaigners claim.

From 2010 the cost of a season ticket will be based on which zone the
starting station is in rather than its distance from the central
London terminus.

About 50,000 people - such as those at the inner edge of a zone - will
be hundreds of pounds worse off, although the same number could see a
small reduction in the cost of their season ticket.

Zonal pricing for single and day return fares was introduced at the
beginning of this year. Although some passengers saw their fares fall,
others, such as those who travel from Kingston and Surbiton, had to
pay 35 per cent more.

Campaigners now fear the cost of an annual or monthly pass will rise
by the same rate when zonal pricing for season tickets is introduced
in 2010. That would equate to a £630 rise for a £1,800 annual pass.

Documents released under the Freedom of Information Act reveal the
Government is preparing for a backlash from the travelling public. A
memo sent to the Transport Secretary from the working group
responsible for introducing zonal prices admits some passengers will
see a "significant" increase in fares. It says the changes will need
"careful media handling".

The memo says zonal pricing will simplify London's ticket pricing
structure and is a necessary step towards introducing Oyster cards
across the capital.

But it continues: "To arrive at zonal fares without losing revenue,
some fares will increase and others decrease. The fact that some
individual fares at the margin will increase by a significant
percentage ... means that the media will need careful handling to
ensure that the 'simpler rail fares for London and no fares increase
overall' message is effectively communicated."

The Association of Train Operating Companies said the condition of
introducing zonal pricing was there would be no overall increase in
revenue from fares. All rail companies, except South Eastern, are also
limited to a rise of retail prices index plus one per cent - which
this year equated to 4.8 per cent.

However, this does not prevent rail firms from increasing fares for
stations as a result of zonal pricing. For commuters in Kingston, the
price of a ticket used to be based on its 12-mile distance to central
London. But as the station is in zone 6, the cost has risen to tally
with other stations in that zone - taking a day return fare from £6.80
to £9.20.

[continues...]
-----
For the rest of the article follow the link above.
-----


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

The main thing that the report lacks clarity on is whether rail-only
season tickets are to be withdrawn completely and commuters moved over
on to Travelcard seasons, or whether rail-seasons might continue to
exist, albeit priced on a zonal basis.

Reading between the lines the report would appear to presume the
former course of action - i.e. withdrawal of rail-only season tickets
altogether. I say this because it states that a Surbiton to London
annual season ticket would rise in price by £630 to £1800. AFAICS the
current price of a rail-only season ticket is £1280, whilst the
current price of a zone 1-6 ticket (Surbiton being on zone 6) is £1720
- that's actually a price difference of £440 at current prices, so
perhaps the Standard calculator is broken, they know next years fares
already, or I'm stupid and have got it all wrong.

Nevertheless given this price difference the presumption in the
article is that rail-only season tickets will go. I wonder if this has
a basis in fact or not? It'd certainly be a very controversial move,
given that many rail-only commuters would end up paying more. The
counter argument to any grumbles from rail commuters could be to
compare the situation with that which Underground commuters encounter
- they already have to pay up for a season Travelcard, as there aren't
Underground-only season tickets these days (and haven't been for a
long while).

On Nov 12, 4:58 pm, Mizter T wrote:
ThisIsLondon / the Evening Standard have the following story of
interest, of which there is an extract below. Unfortunately the story
isn't precise on what the plans are to be - so I'll add my own
comments underneath the quoted text.

-----http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23420590-details/artic...
-----
*Cost of season tickets to soar under new system*
Jason Beattie, Chief Political Correspondent - 12.11.07

Our local MP is battling to get Surbiton re-classed as Zone 5 ....

Hope it works ...

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:58:00 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

ThisIsLondon / the Evening Standard have the following story of
interest, of which there is an extract below. Unfortunately the story
isn't precise on what the plans are to be - so I'll add my own
comments underneath the quoted text.

-----
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ils/article.do
-----
*Cost of season tickets to soar under new system*
Jason Beattie, Chief Political Correspondent - 12.11.07

Thousands of rail commuters face a huge rise in the cost of season
tickets, the Standard can reveal.

Some travellers could pay as much as £600 more for an annual pass,
campaigners claim.

From 2010 the cost of a season ticket will be based on which zone the
starting station is in rather than its distance from the central
London terminus.

[snip]

So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

The main thing that the report lacks clarity on is whether rail-only
season tickets are to be withdrawn completely and commuters moved over
on to Travelcard seasons, or whether rail-seasons might continue to
exist, albeit priced on a zonal basis.

Reading between the lines the report would appear to presume the
former course of action - i.e. withdrawal of rail-only season tickets
altogether. I say this because it states that a Surbiton to London
annual season ticket would rise in price by £630 to £1800. AFAICS the
current price of a rail-only season ticket is £1280, whilst the
current price of a zone 1-6 ticket (Surbiton being on zone 6) is £1720
- that's actually a price difference of £440 at current prices, so
perhaps the Standard calculator is broken, they know next years fares
already, or I'm stupid and have got it all wrong.

I don't read the article as meaning rail only seasons disappear at all.
Nor do I see that there is a mandating of Travelcards instead. I think
an extreme (and probably inaccurate) example has been used to try to
make a headline. I simply can't see the TOCs agreeing (even under DfT
pressure) to scrap rail only seasons. The problem being pointed to is
the same as for zonal cash fares - people further out in a zone gain
compared to those who are closer to the centre where a mileage based
fare would be lower.

It's perfectly feasible to allow rail only seasons on Oyster together
with PAYG for non rail use as an available feature (just as Travelcard
and PAYG combine on TfL services). I think this is potentially quite
attractive but the problem is entirely centred on the pricing that is
finally chosen. The knock on that then follows for Travelcard is also
interesting given that price comparisons will be very easy to make and
I'd anticipate some switching to rail only seasons and PAYG rather than
full priced Travelcards. Whether pressure would build for LU only
seasons and PAYG is a further potential twist.

--
Paul C

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:58:00 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

ThisIsLondon / the Evening Standard have the following story of
interest, of which there is an extract below. Unfortunately the story
isn't precise on what the plans are to be - so I'll add my own
comments underneath the quoted text.

-----
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ils/article.do
-----
*Cost of season tickets to soar under new system*
Jason Beattie, Chief Political Correspondent - 12.11.07

Thousands of rail commuters face a huge rise in the cost of season
tickets, the Standard can reveal.

Some travellers could pay as much as £600 more for an annual pass,
campaigners claim.

From 2010 the cost of a season ticket will be based on which zone the
starting station is in rather than its distance from the central
London terminus.

[snip]

So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

The main thing that the report lacks clarity on is whether rail-only
season tickets are to be withdrawn completely and commuters moved over
on to Travelcard seasons, or whether rail-seasons might continue to
exist, albeit priced on a zonal basis.

Reading between the lines the report would appear to presume the
former course of action - i.e. withdrawal of rail-only season tickets
altogether. I say this because it states that a Surbiton to London
annual season ticket would rise in price by £630 to £1800. AFAICS the
current price of a rail-only season ticket is £1280, whilst the
current price of a zone 1-6 ticket (Surbiton being on zone 6) is £1720
- that's actually a price difference of £440 at current prices, so
perhaps the Standard calculator is broken, they know next years fares
already, or I'm stupid and have got it all wrong.

I don't read the article as meaning rail only seasons disappear at all.
Nor do I see that there is a mandating of Travelcards instead. I think
an extreme (and probably inaccurate) example has been used to try to
make a headline. I simply can't see the TOCs agreeing (even under DfT
pressure) to scrap rail only seasons. The problem being pointed to is
the same as for zonal cash fares - people further out in a zone gain
compared to those who are closer to the centre where a mileage based
fare would be lower.

The £1800 figure, along with mentions of Surbiton and also of Kingston
(in the full article) was all that what led me to think that's what
the article might be suggesting - £1800 being a near enough figure to
£1720, the cost of an annual zones 1-6 Travelcard.

But what you say is indeed a good point, not least because rail-only
seasons tickets are a significant part of any TOCs revenue stream.
Whilst that revenue might have to be shared between TOCs, dependent
upon the route in question, it doesn't have to be further shared with
TfL as happens with the Travelcard revenue.


It's perfectly feasible to allow rail only seasons on Oyster together
with PAYG for non rail use as an available feature (just as Travelcard
and PAYG combine on TfL services). I think this is potentially quite
attractive but the problem is entirely centred on the pricing that is
finally chosen. The knock on that then follows for Travelcard is also
interesting given that price comparisons will be very easy to make and
I'd anticipate some switching to rail only seasons and PAYG rather than
full priced Travelcards. Whether pressure would build for LU only
seasons and PAYG is a further potential twist.


On rail routes that accept PAYG, a rail-only season ticket loaded on
an Oyster card could presumably be used to auto extend rail journeys
beyond that held on the season ticket - another interesting
possibility!

Am I right in saying that LU season tickets basically went out when
Travelcard seasons came in? And were there many grumbles when this
happened, or was the price difference minimal?

Whilst the Travelcard is fantastic I do find it surprising that they
are the only season ticket choice for an LU-only commuter whereas a
rail commuter (usually) has a choice between Travelcard season or a
cheaper rail-only season. In particular, ever since the Capitalcard
(which had BR validity too) was folded into the expanded LT+BR
Travelcard scheme in the late 80's, a simple reading of this
arrangement would suggest that income from LU-only commuters leaves
the hands of LU towards the TOCs. That said I suppose the Travelcard
monies are allocated according to how many passengers are using what
services so LU shouldn't be out of pocket as a result.

Mizter T wrote:


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket
between the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to
them it costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the
staff seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it
must be pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a
bit of a validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm
keeping quiet on that one :-)

The main thing that the report lacks clarity on is whether rail-only
season tickets are to be withdrawn completely and commuters moved over
on to Travelcard seasons, or whether rail-seasons might continue to
exist, albeit priced on a zonal basis.

A couple of years or so ago they abolished single zone annual seasons,
so anyone needing say a z5 annual travelcard had to get a z4-5 (or z5-6)
instead, which meant a massive increase in price. At that point I
switched to a point-to-point rail only season instead. A single zone
travelcard was worth the extra cost for the "free" bus and tram use, but
a two-zone travelcard was so much more expensive it was only worthwhile
for very frequent travellers.

Reading between the lines the report would appear to presume the
former course of action - i.e. withdrawal of rail-only season tickets
altogether.

OTOH, if the Evening Standard reported that the moon was made of rock, I
would get a second opinion from a cheese expert.

I say this because it states that a Surbiton to London
annual season ticket would rise in price by £630 to £1800. AFAICS the
current price of a rail-only season ticket is £1280, whilst the
current price of a zone 1-6 ticket (Surbiton being on zone 6) is £1720
- that's actually a price difference of £440 at current prices, so
perhaps the Standard calculator is broken, they know next years fares
already, or I'm stupid and have got it all wrong.

Nevertheless given this price difference the presumption in the
article is that rail-only season tickets will go. I wonder if this has
a basis in fact or not? It'd certainly be a very controversial move,
given that many rail-only commuters would end up paying more. The
counter argument to any grumbles from rail commuters could be to
compare the situation with that which Underground commuters encounter
- they already have to pay up for a season Travelcard, as there aren't
Underground-only season tickets these days (and haven't been for a
long while).



--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:58:34 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

snip

Am I right in saying that LU season tickets basically went out when
Travelcard seasons came in? And were there many grumbles when this
happened, or was the price difference minimal?

IIRC they went out (with possibly some rare exceptions) when the
functions performed by LT Travelcards and BR/LT Capitalcards were
combined. For many ordinary season ticket holders this resulted in
"free" use of buses at one or both ends of the journey with AFAIR few
people actually having to pay more than they had to pay previously, at
least for those travelling wholly within Greater London.
snip

On 12 Nov, 20:06, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket
between the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to
them it costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the
staff seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it
must be pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a
bit of a validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm
keeping quiet on that one :-)

I believe Southern have been pricing all their tickets, season or
otherwise, on a zonal basis since January 2005. When I realised that's
what they were doing I certainly saw the potential for doing exactly
what you do - i.e. making the most of your money by getting in as much
trackage on your season ticket as possible.

If such zonal pricing is adopted on a London-wide basis I'd expect
many other people to clock on to this possibility as well!

Regarding routes in south London - there is certainly a lot of
potential for getting as much "extra validity" as possible when it
comes to choosing a season ticket. I have to say you have piqued my
interest with whatever cunning scheme you've come up with! (So please
feel free to email me off-group to share it on a totally confidential
basis!)


The main thing that the report lacks clarity on is whether rail-only
season tickets are to be withdrawn completely and commuters moved over
on to Travelcard seasons, or whether rail-seasons might continue to
exist, albeit priced on a zonal basis.

A couple of years or so ago they abolished single zone annual seasons,
so anyone needing say a z5 annual travelcard had to get a z4-5 (or z5-6)
instead, which meant a massive increase in price. At that point I
switched to a point-to-point rail only season instead. A single zone
travelcard was worth the extra cost for the "free" bus and tram use, but
a two-zone travelcard was so much more expensive it was only worthwhile
for very frequent travellers.

Yes. There wasn't a great deal of complaint about that change, less so
than I would have thought. I guess that the number of people who
previously had a single zone Travelcard was perhaps not that great. Of
course for some people PAYG has become an option worth considering
even for commuting purposes.


Reading between the lines the report would appear to presume the
former course of action - i.e. withdrawal of rail-only season tickets
altogether.

OTOH, if the Evening Standard reported that the moon was made of rock, I
would get a second opinion from a cheese expert.


Well, they need to sell their papers somehow I suppose. But one does
become somewhat accustomed to the shock horror Evening Standard
headline that transmutes overnight into something far milder by the
time it reaches the morning papers!

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
...
Mizter T wrote:


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket between
the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to them it
costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the staff
seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it must be
pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a bit of a
validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm keeping quiet
on that one :-)


Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

Paul S

Paul Scott wrote:

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
...
Mizter T wrote:


So here are my comments on this...

Since beginning of this year all point-to-point *non-season* tickets -
i.e. single and day returns - for journeys wholly within London (i.e.
zones 1-6) have had their prices set on a zonal basis (although they
are still issued on a named origin and destination basis and
validity). At the time we were told that season tickets would also
eventually also be priced on this bases.

Southern seem to have annual seasons priced on a zonal basis. I buy an
annual season for a journey entirely in one zone, so rather than buy a
ticket for the trip I actually do most days, I buy a season ticket between
the last stations within the zone, so if I ever need to go to them it
costs me nowt extra. The first time I bought such a ticket the staff
seemed a bit surprised, but they weren't this year and I guess it must be
pretty common by now - you'd be daft not to. I've also found a bit of a
validity loophole, which the staff accept is valid, but I'm keeping quiet
on that one :-)


Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

Paul S

I presume Southern must have pushed for the 2006 changes which led to
a significant extension of zone 6 - and it wasn't just the Tattenham
Corner line, see this 2005 thread that I started for the details -
"Zone 6 conquers ten further Southern stations".

In January 2007 Ewell West and Ewell East also came into the Zone 6
fold, which led to the next station along from Ewell West, Stoneleigh,
being shunted in to Zone 5, despite the fact it's in Surrey rather
than Greater London - though Chigwell on the Central line is in Zone 4
yet in Essex.

I'd be interested to know what the actual process is for making
changes to the London zonal system. The TOCs generally appear to claim
that the DfT is the final arbiter, but I'd imagine that TfL gets a say
in it as well. Does anyone know for certain how it works?

"Paul Scott" wrote

Aren't Southern also the only TOC that have proactively arranged for the
zone 6 boundary to be changed, to make things a bit simpler in a
particular
area, the Tattenham Corner line IIRC?

They have recently extended Zone 6 from the GLC boundary out to Caterham,
Upper Warlingham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. Made a pleasant day in
thbe Summer, out to Epsom Downs, walk across the downs to Tattenham Corner,
train to Caterham via Purley, back to Whyteleafe, short walk to Upper
Warlingham, then train back to East Croydon and a Voyager to Kensington
Olympia.

Earlier extensions of Zone 6 have included Hampton Court, Moor Park,
Elstree, and Epping, though IIRC these were all in the first few years of
Travelcards.

Peter