On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:47:41 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What is planned?
Recently, I found no ticket selling facilities near the gate line weird.
It cries out for a pedestrian tunnel between rail and bus stations.

A tunnel between the bus and tube station!

An enlarged LU ticket office where the old assistance office was. There
are several (3?) LU ticket machines as part of the enlarged office.

Liverpool Street and Chingford PAYG connections can be pseudo-validated
as there are Oyster readers on the rail platforms.

Not sure what you mean by pseudo validated. The validators on the
Liverpool St platform are really only for recording entry as you can
only proceed to Liverpool St / Tott Hale / Seven Sisters on the "one"
service from there. PAYG is NOT valid intermediately between Walthamstow
and Liverpool St or to stations north to Chingford.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:47:41 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What is planned?
Recently, I found no ticket selling facilities near the gate line weird.
It cries out for a pedestrian tunnel between rail and bus stations.

A tunnel between the bus and tube station!

An enlarged LU ticket office where the old assistance office was. There
are several (3?) LU ticket machines as part of the enlarged office.

Glad to hear that this is all coming along. The 'one' ticket office
always seems somewhat deluged. Did LU run out of money to build a
proper ticket office in the first place, or were the passenger
estimates low enough to think they could get away with directing
everyone to the BR ticket office?


Liverpool Street and Chingford PAYG connections can be pseudo-validated
as there are Oyster readers on the rail platforms.

Not sure what you mean by pseudo validated. The validators on the
Liverpool St platform are really only for recording entry as you can
only proceed to Liverpool St / Tott Hale / Seven Sisters on the "one"
service from there. PAYG is NOT valid intermediately between Walthamstow
and Liverpool St or to stations north to Chingford.
--
Paul C

I don't understand what he means either!

A question for you Paul. If, when using Oyster PAYG, you were to go
from Blackhorse Road on the Victoria line to Walthamstow Central,
through the gates and then board a 'one' train to Liverpool Street
then you should obviously touch-in on the readers on the 'one'
platforms at Walthamstow Central - otherwise you wouldn't have a valid
ticket.

However let's say you did this anyway, I'm wondering whether the
Oyster system might not just go along with it an extend the Blackhorse
Road - Walthamstow Central journey to Liverpool Street.

Perhaps that's a bad example - a similar scenario would be a passenger
touching-in at Walthamstow Central, going to Liverpool Street, failing
to touch-out (let's say the gates were left open) then entering the LU
station through the gates and exiting the system at say Oxford Circus.
I'm inclined to think that the system might tolerate this and just
extend the journey to cover both legs rather than in leading to an
unresolved journey and hence the £4 'charge'.

Obviously this is not what passengers should do, as they'd leave
themselves liable to a penalty fare (or even prosecution) which would
be quite possible if they were checked on the train in the first
scenario.

Glad to hear that this is all coming along. The 'one' ticket office
always seems somewhat deluged. Did LU run out of money to build a
proper ticket office in the first place, or were the passenger
estimates low enough to think they could get away with directing
everyone to the BR ticket office?

Since it's Victoria line, it is safe to assume it was for cost-
cutting :-|

In message
of
Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:02:57 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:47:41 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What is planned?
Recently, I found no ticket selling facilities near the gate line weird.
It cries out for a pedestrian tunnel between rail and bus stations.

A tunnel between the bus and tube station!

That sounds good. I was hoping you were going to point to a URL.
I just failed to find anything useful when I searched at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/default.aspx for walthamstow tunnel bus


An enlarged LU ticket office where the old assistance office was. There
are several (3?) LU ticket machines as part of the enlarged office.

Glad to hear that this is all coming along. The 'one' ticket office
always seems somewhat deluged. Did LU run out of money to build a
proper ticket office in the first place, or were the passenger
estimates low enough to think they could get away with directing
everyone to the BR ticket office?


Liverpool Street and Chingford PAYG connections can be pseudo-validated
as there are Oyster readers on the rail platforms.

Not sure what you mean by pseudo validated. The validators on the
Liverpool St platform are really only for recording entry as you can
only proceed to Liverpool St / Tott Hale / Seven Sisters on the "one"
service from there. PAYG is NOT valid intermediately between Walthamstow
and Liverpool St or to stations north to Chingford.

A PAYG Oyster holder who touches in at Liverpool Street mainline station
and out on the platform at Walthamstow Central would be travelling
outside the rules on continuing to Chingford but such a breach would
probably not be detected given the lack of Revenue protection by One.

--
Paul C

I don't understand what he means either!

I hope my meaning is now clear. I like it that most London public
transport journeys are reasonably fraud proof. (I ignore gate line
vaulters who are allegedly common at some stations - including Stockwell
where my partner used to work.)
--
Walter Briscoe

On 16 Nov, 14:08, Walter Briscoe wrote:
I hope my meaning is now clear. I like it that most London public
transport journeys are reasonably fraud proof. (I ignore gate line
vaulters who are allegedly common at some stations - including Stockwell
where my partner used to work.)

Only gun-wielding ones in police uniform chasing innocent
electricians, ITYF.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:02:57 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:47:41 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What is planned?
Recently, I found no ticket selling facilities near the gate line weird.
It cries out for a pedestrian tunnel between rail and bus stations.

A tunnel between the bus and tube station!

An enlarged LU ticket office where the old assistance office was. There
are several (3?) LU ticket machines as part of the enlarged office.

Glad to hear that this is all coming along. The 'one' ticket office
always seems somewhat deluged. Did LU run out of money to build a
proper ticket office in the first place, or were the passenger
estimates low enough to think they could get away with directing
everyone to the BR ticket office?

There never was a LU ticket office at Walthamstow Central. It was just
like Richmond or Wimbledon in having TOC only facilities.

When we came to install the gates on the top end of the Vic Line (a
project I was Client for) we had to do something to provide for excess /
penalty fare collection. At the line's request we compromised the manual
gate installation so the window could serve both paid and unpaid sides
in order to provide some more ticket selling capacity (and income to LU,
of course).

We did look at putting a ticket office under the NR tracks but that
would have been hugely expensive and would have undermined the entire
business case for the whole gating scheme given the design and civil
engineering issues. At that time there was no thought of a new bus
station or the subway link.

The gates scheme was not at all popular with WAGN because they wanted
them at their ticket office level so they got their traffic gated as
well. However they weren't prepared to pay anything towards the scheme
nor to adjust their staffing to ensure the gates were operated at all
times - pretty much essential given the high traffic levels so as to
maximise the scheme benefits. Similarly they were enraged at the
provision of a ticket office that could sell tickets from the unpaid
side of the gateline as they felt they'd lose money and commission on
sales. Quite how "one" feel about an even bigger ticket selling capacity
in the new set up I can only guess at.

I'll readily accept the scheme at Walthamstow was a compromise but given
the lack of money we had for investment it was a case of the "art of the
possible" rather than trying for perfection and getting nothing done. I
still feel proud of those gates as I go through every day and know I was
instrumental in getting them installed. Unfortunately we were not able
to do anything about Finsbury Park but a colleague is piloting the
latest scheme through the design stage so perhaps we will get it
expanded and gated at long last!

A question for you Paul. If, when using Oyster PAYG, you were to go
from Blackhorse Road on the Victoria line to Walthamstow Central,
through the gates and then board a 'one' train to Liverpool Street
then you should obviously touch-in on the readers on the 'one'
platforms at Walthamstow Central - otherwise you wouldn't have a valid
ticket.

However let's say you did this anyway, I'm wondering whether the
Oyster system might not just go along with it an extend the Blackhorse
Road - Walthamstow Central journey to Liverpool Street.

Don't know to be honest as I am unclear as to whether Walthamstow
Central is configured as an OSI for PAYG validation. If it was then
provided there was the correct "in" "out" sequence within the time
parameters for interchange then it should charge one through fare. If
you then went out at Liv St NR and in at Liv St LU in the correct time
parameter then you're still on one through PAYG fare provided you reach
your destination in under 2 hours.

It will get interesting to see what happens when "one" extend PAYG to
their London network in January as I suppose you might argue someone
might go Blackhorse Road - Tottenham Hale - Hackney Downs and that
theoretically requires an OSI at Tottenham Hale. Thinking further though
I'd say Tottenham Hale is already like that because PAYG is valid
Tottenham Hale - Stratford on the "one" service there and taking it
further if you then changed to DLR or Jubilee Line at Stratford for
Canary Wharf you should be charged one through PAYG fare for Blackhorse
Road - Canary Wharf.

Perhaps that's a bad example - a similar scenario would be a passenger
touching-in at Walthamstow Central, going to Liverpool Street, failing
to touch-out (let's say the gates were left open) then entering the LU
station through the gates and exiting the system at say Oxford Circus.
I'm inclined to think that the system might tolerate this and just
extend the journey to cover both legs rather than in leading to an
unresolved journey and hence the £4 'charge'.

I'm not aware of any "tolerance" in the system. It's touch in, touch out
for each leg. I would guess (as I've not seen the logic) that the card
journey history is checked at each validation device and provided
entries, exits and journey times are fine then the charge will
eventually align to the overall through PAYG fare when the final value
is added back on at final exit (given that maximum fare is deducted on
each entry stage).

The only other complication to all of the above and especially the
examples from Vic Line to say "one" intermediate stations in Hackney or
even on towards Chingford is quite what the underlying ticket type is.
Zone 1 - Walthamstow is interavailable which means the LU fare and PAYG
rate applies. However interavailability does not apply at intermediate
stops in Hackney on the Chingford line and therefore tube/train rates
should apply. However these are only cash rates at present - I expect
PAYG discounted rate to emerge at the Fares Revision. Similarly the same
might apply for NR only journeys where NR zonal fares are charged - e.g.
Clapton - Highams Park. Quite how the system is going to differentiate
all of this I'm not very sure but it does it today on magnetics with
through ticketing so Smartcards should be able to cope. I wonder if the
passengers can?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:15:50 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:02:57 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:47:41 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What is planned?
Recently, I found no ticket selling facilities near the gate line weird.
It cries out for a pedestrian tunnel between rail and bus stations.

A tunnel between the bus and tube station!

An enlarged LU ticket office where the old assistance office was. There
are several (3?) LU ticket machines as part of the enlarged office.

Glad to hear that this is all coming along. The 'one' ticket office
always seems somewhat deluged. Did LU run out of money to build a
proper ticket office in the first place, or were the passenger
estimates low enough to think they could get away with directing
everyone to the BR ticket office?

There never was a LU ticket office at Walthamstow Central. It was just
like Richmond or Wimbledon in having TOC only facilities.

When we came to install the gates on the top end of the Vic Line (a
project I was Client for) we had to do something to provide for excess /
penalty fare collection. At the line's request we compromised the manual
gate installation so the window could serve both paid and unpaid sides
in order to provide some more ticket selling capacity (and income to LU,
of course).

We did look at putting a ticket office under the NR tracks but that
would have been hugely expensive and would have undermined the entire
business case for the whole gating scheme given the design and civil
engineering issues. At that time there was no thought of a new bus
station or the subway link.

The gates scheme was not at all popular with WAGN because they wanted
them at their ticket office level so they got their traffic gated as
well. However they weren't prepared to pay anything towards the scheme
nor to adjust their staffing to ensure the gates were operated at all
times - pretty much essential given the high traffic levels so as to
maximise the scheme benefits. Similarly they were enraged at the
provision of a ticket office that could sell tickets from the unpaid
side of the gateline as they felt they'd lose money and commission on
sales. Quite how "one" feel about an even bigger ticket selling capacity
in the new set up I can only guess at.

I'll readily accept the scheme at Walthamstow was a compromise but given
the lack of money we had for investment it was a case of the "art of the
possible" rather than trying for perfection and getting nothing done. I
still feel proud of those gates as I go through every day and know I was
instrumental in getting them installed. Unfortunately we were not able
to do anything about Finsbury Park but a colleague is piloting the
latest scheme through the design stage so perhaps we will get it
expanded and gated at long last!

A question for you Paul. If, when using Oyster PAYG, you were to go
from Blackhorse Road on the Victoria line to Walthamstow Central,
through the gates and then board a 'one' train to Liverpool Street
then you should obviously touch-in on the readers on the 'one'
platforms at Walthamstow Central - otherwise you wouldn't have a valid
ticket.

However let's say you did this anyway, I'm wondering whether the
Oyster system might not just go along with it an extend the Blackhorse
Road - Walthamstow Central journey to Liverpool Street.

Don't know to be honest as I am unclear as to whether Walthamstow
Central is configured as an OSI for PAYG validation. If it was then
provided there was the correct "in" "out" sequence within the time
parameters for interchange then it should charge one through fare. If
you then went out at Liv St NR and in at Liv St LU in the correct time
parameter then you're still on one through PAYG fare provided you reach
your destination in under 2 hours.

It will get interesting to see what happens when "one" extend PAYG to
their London network in January as I suppose you might argue someone
might go Blackhorse Road - Tottenham Hale - Hackney Downs and that
theoretically requires an OSI at Tottenham Hale. Thinking further though
I'd say Tottenham Hale is already like that because PAYG is valid
Tottenham Hale - Stratford on the "one" service there and taking it
further if you then changed to DLR or Jubilee Line at Stratford for
Canary Wharf you should be charged one through PAYG fare for Blackhorse
Road - Canary Wharf.

Perhaps that's a bad example - a similar scenario would be a passenger
touching-in at Walthamstow Central, going to Liverpool Street, failing
to touch-out (let's say the gates were left open) then entering the LU
station through the gates and exiting the system at say Oxford Circus.
I'm inclined to think that the system might tolerate this and just
extend the journey to cover both legs rather than in leading to an
unresolved journey and hence the £4 'charge'.

I'm not aware of any "tolerance" in the system. It's touch in, touch out
for each leg. I would guess (as I've not seen the logic) that the card
journey history is checked at each validation device and provided
entries, exits and journey times are fine then the charge will
eventually align to the overall through PAYG fare when the final value
is added back on at final exit (given that maximum fare is deducted on
each entry stage).

The only other complication to all of the above and especially the
examples from Vic Line to say "one" intermediate stations in Hackney or
even on towards Chingford is quite what the underlying ticket type is.
Zone 1 - Walthamstow is interavailable which means the LU fare and PAYG
rate applies. However interavailability does not apply at intermediate
stops in Hackney on the Chingford line and therefore tube/train rates
should apply. However these are only cash rates at present - I expect
PAYG discounted rate to emerge at the Fares Revision. Similarly the same
might apply for NR only journeys where NR zonal fares are charged - e.g.
Clapton - Highams Park. Quite how the system is going to differentiate
all of this I'm not very sure but it does it today on magnetics with
through ticketing so Smartcards should be able to cope. I wonder if the
passengers can?


I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and
had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card.

On 26 Nov, 17:06, Martyn Dawe wrote:

(snip previous quoted posts)

I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and
had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card.


There are Oyster readers (or more precisely validators) on both of the
'one' platforms so you shouldn't have needed to do that.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:54:30 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On 26 Nov, 17:06, Martyn Dawe wrote:

(snip previous quoted posts)

I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and
had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card.


There are Oyster readers (or more precisely validators) on both of the
'one' platforms so you shouldn't have needed to do that.

Err no there are not. They are strictly at the entrances to the platform
from each of the "one" ticket offices. The OP is correct.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 26 Nov, 20:07, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:54:30 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On 26 Nov, 17:06, Martyn Dawe wrote:

(snip previous quoted posts)

I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and
had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card.

There are Oyster readers (or more precisely validators) on both of the
'one' platforms so you shouldn't have needed to do that.

Err no there are not. They are strictly at the entrances to the platform
from each of the "one" ticket offices. The OP is correct.
--
Paul C


Misunderstanding alert. I thought Martyn Dawe was saying he had to go
*down* to the Tube ticket hall and validate his Oyster there, so I was
merely trying to point out that Oyster readers existed at overground
platform level on both platforms.

But of course I now see his point, that the subway provides a new
route to the 'one' platforms that doesn't pass any Oyster readers.
That's something I daresay 'one' railway should address before PAYG
goes live on their network in London in January.