In message
,
Boltar writes
I doubt staff lie deliberately but I've been in a number of situations
where they've given blatantly wrong information. My most recent
experience was a driver who told us the line was suspended and the
train was terminating at its current station. 5 minutes later after no
station announcements the train headed off again with a new driver.
Now either the signalman was full of it that day or the driver just
wanted to knock off early and needed an excuse to give us pax.
Is there not the possibility that the motorman was told to stable the
train at that station and just didn't know that relief was coming on
five minutes later, or that a driver became available?
--
Clive.

On Nov 25, 2:18 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
Ah yes, we did have that the other week. There was a point failure with
the new points at the east end of the platform and the controller
suspended the service. 10 minutes later he ran a train through to
Cockfosters - I know that as I drove that first train!

I'd be interested to know how the points managed to fix themselves.

As it happens, the driver you so blithely accuse of wanting to get off
early had just picked up the train fresh from another driver who was

I only mentioned it because I was listening to him chat on that phone
at the end of the platform and I distinctly heard him ask if he could
go home now.

about 50 mins late finishing. He was as surprised as us all when the
signaller took a release (reset the eastbound starting signal to danger
- without warning) and the Line Controller then told him that the
service was suspended and that train was to go back west.

Well, whatever the reason , one minute the service was suspended , 10
minutes later its not. Which isn't much comfort for the people who
eventually got off to look for a bus (including me) once the driver
had legged it only to see the train heading off north shortly after.
Perhaps some joined up thinking from the staff could have got someone
to make a station announcement to the effect that the line was re-
opened and everyone come back down to the platform. But hey , who am I
kidding , this is Britain...

B2003

In message
,
Boltar writes

Ah yes, we did have that the other week. There was a point failure with
the new points at the east end of the platform and the controller
suspended the service. 10 minutes later he ran a train through to
Cockfosters - I know that as I drove that first train!

I'd be interested to know how the points managed to fix themselves.

They didn't. We had a man working on the control box for about 20 mins
that I know of. The main control box for those new points is virtually
out of sight of the platform though. You don't necessarily need a man
on site with a big hammer to fix these things.

As it happens, the driver you so blithely accuse of wanting to get off
early had just picked up the train fresh from another driver who was

I only mentioned it because I was listening to him chat on that phone
at the end of the platform and I distinctly heard him ask if he could
go home now.

The one who had just got off, or the replacement one? The one who had
just got off was already very late, it's often said by us to our
managers as a tongue in cheek comment when you're that late. The new
driver was getting towards the end of his spare turn (I think he had
about an hour left - plenty of time to do a CFS and back but not much
more) and couldn't take the train west so another driver got on at the
west end. As at that point we were still shut down, once he was told
not to take the train it was a fairly reasonable question to ask.

about 50 mins late finishing. He was as surprised as us all when the
signaller took a release (reset the eastbound starting signal to danger
- without warning) and the Line Controller then told him that the
service was suspended and that train was to go back west.

Well, whatever the reason , one minute the service was suspended , 10
minutes later its not. Which isn't much comfort for the people who
eventually got off to look for a bus (including me) once the driver
had legged it only to see the train heading off north shortly after.
Perhaps some joined up thinking from the staff could have got someone
to make a station announcement to the effect that the line was re-
opened and everyone come back down to the platform. But hey , who am I
kidding , this is Britain...

No, you didn't see that train go 'north'. The first train went back
west, the one that went east (don't forget the Piccadilly is an east to
west railway) was about 10 minutes later. Once a decision has been made
to suspend the service - which isn't something done lightly - it would
be assumed that it would be a long shutdown. The fact that the
Technical Officer managed to fix it fairly quickly is a bonus. the
priority then is to get some trains moving and get people home. Mine
was packed full, and had you waited around a few minutes as quite a few
of your fellow passengers did, you would have heard me shouting that we
were going to CFS after all and to get on the train.

Anyway, wasn't it you the other week who was celebrating that you no
longer have to use the Underground? That didn't last long then did it?
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

On Nov 26, 6:51 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message
,
Boltar writes

Ah yes, we did have that the other week. There was a point failure with
the new points at the east end of the platform and the controller
suspended the service. 10 minutes later he ran a train through to
Cockfosters - I know that as I drove that first train!

I'd be interested to know how the points managed to fix themselves.

They didn't. We had a man working on the control box for about 20 mins
that I know of. The main control box for those new points is virtually
out of sight of the platform though. You don't necessarily need a man
on site with a big hammer to fix these things.

As it happens, the driver you so blithely accuse of wanting to get off
early had just picked up the train fresh from another driver who was

I only mentioned it because I was listening to him chat on that phone
at the end of the platform and I distinctly heard him ask if he could
go home now.

The one who had just got off, or the replacement one? The one who had
just got off was already very late, it's often said by us to our
managers as a tongue in cheek comment when you're that late. The new
driver was getting towards the end of his spare turn (I think he had
about an hour left - plenty of time to do a CFS and back but not much
more) and couldn't take the train west so another driver got on at the
west end. As at that point we were still shut down, once he was told
not to take the train it was a fairly reasonable question to ask.

about 50 mins late finishing. He was as surprised as us all when the
signaller took a release (reset the eastbound starting signal to danger
- without warning) and the Line Controller then told him that the
service was suspended and that train was to go back west.

Well, whatever the reason , one minute the service was suspended , 10
minutes later its not. Which isn't much comfort for the people who
eventually got off to look for a bus (including me) once the driver
had legged it only to see the train heading off north shortly after.
Perhaps some joined up thinking from the staff could have got someone
to make a station announcement to the effect that the line was re-
opened and everyone come back down to the platform. But hey , who am I
kidding , this is Britain...

No, you didn't see that train go 'north'. The first train went back
west, the one that went east (don't forget the Piccadilly is an east to
west railway) was about 10 minutes later.


Does that mean that a train going from Oakwood to Cockfosters is
heading east?

Whatever your annoyance, I don't think the use of genuine compass
directions is worthy of criticism.

In message
, MIG
writes

Does that mean that a train going from Oakwood to Cockfosters is
heading east?

Yes, sort of. It's heading west on the eastbound track. It's still an
eastbound train though.

Whatever your annoyance, I don't think the use of genuine compass
directions is worthy of criticism.

It's very important to know what everyone is talking about. That's
where (potentially) tragic incidents occur. The Piccadilly is an east -
west railway, regardless of the actual direction travelled.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

On Nov 27, 3:46 am, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message
, MIG
writes

Does that mean that a train going from Oakwood to Cockfosters is
heading east?

Yes, sort of. It's heading west on the eastbound track. It's still an
eastbound train though.

Whatever your annoyance, I don't think the use of genuine compass
directions is worthy of criticism.

It's very important to know what everyone is talking about. That's
where (potentially) tragic incidents occur. The Piccadilly is an east -
west railway, regardless of the actual direction travelled.


That's fair enough in a safety-critical context between relevant
professionals. In normal conversation* involving lay-persons, and
also in an emergency communication between professionals and the
public, I think it could be very confusing to throw in technical terms
which happen to have a similar morphology to everyday terms, but with
an opposite meaning.

In a non-safety-critical context, the poster used an everyday term (he
didn't say northbound, but that the train headed north). There can't
be any doubt about what he meant (and which you disputed the truth of,
so must have understood).

Incidentally, it would seem like a good idea if another pair of terms
was used, on the lines of A and D ends, which are constant and don't
imply compass directions, and would be guaranteed to be unambiguous.

What does TfL do when a bus route is on a parallel road such that a
replacement bus heading east would be going the same way as a
westbound train? Do they refer to the railway direction, which might
be opposite to how the same driver refers to the direction on his/her
normal route along the same road?

*I know this isn't quite that.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 03:46:02AM +0000, Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

It's very important to know what everyone is talking about. That's
where (potentially) tragic incidents occur.

Calling north east seems very confusing.

The Piccadilly is an east -
west railway, regardless of the actual direction travelled.

If you want to get rid of ambiguity, say where the train is heading for.

--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age

Sobol's Law of Telecom Utilities:
Telcos are malicious; cablecos are simply clueless.

In message
, MIG
writes
In a non-safety-critical context, the poster used an everyday term (he
didn't say northbound, but that the train headed north). There can't
be any doubt about what he meant (and which you disputed the truth of,
so must have understood).
Surely there can't be that many loons who carry a compass around in
London. (Incase they get lost?)
All the underground lines, in maps for public consumption show all lines
to be either north south or east west, for clarity, what's wrong with
holding to that convention?
--
Clive.

On 27 Nov, 12:48, "Clive." wrote:
In message
, MIG
writesIn a non-safety-critical context, the poster used an everyday term (he
didn't say northbound, but that the train headed north). There can't
be any doubt about what he meant (and which you disputed the truth of,
so must have understood).

Surely there can't be that many loons who carry a compass around in
London. (Incase they get lost?)
All the underground lines, in maps for public consumption show all lines
to be either north south or east west, for clarity, what's wrong with
holding to that convention?
--
Clive.

I haven't seen any maps showing Southgate east of Arnos Grove. I was
defending the reference to a train heading north, which it would be in
reality and on all diagrams.

On 27 Nov, 13:32, MIG wrote:
On 27 Nov, 12:48, "Clive." wrote:

MIG writes:
In a non-safety-critical context, the poster used an everyday term (he
didn't say northbound, but that the train headed north). There can't
be any doubt about what he meant (and which you disputed the truth of,
so must have understood).

Surely there can't be that many loons who carry a compass around in
London. (Incase they get lost?)
All the underground lines, in maps for public consumption show all lines
to be either north south or east west, for clarity, what's wrong with
holding to that convention?
--
Clive.

I haven't seen any maps showing Southgate east of Arnos Grove. I was
defending the reference to a train heading north, which it would be in
reality and on all diagrams.


I haven't delved in to the details of Boltar's complaint/rant and I'm
not going to, but I quite agree that there's nothing wrong with
describing a train heading north at this point, when that's exactly
what it was (or wasn't) doing. The general public don't need to abide
by LU's operational compass because the general public ain't running
the trains, they're travelling on them.

Plus, I always like to have some idea of what direction N/S/E/W is,
though no I don't carry a compass (although there are definitely
occasions when I would find it useful).