On 27 Nov, 08:45, Martyn Dawe wrote:

(snip)

in a similar vein I find www.traveline.co.uk use full for out of
London trips


Though the URL you'll be needing is in fact:
http://www.traveline.org.uk/

Traveline is run on a regional basis, and so the online journey
planners used by the different regional Traveline bureaus can vary
widely. I'm less convinced by some of them than I am by others.

The Traveline South East journey planner uses the same engine as the
TfL JP:
http://www.travelinesoutheast.org.uk/

There's also the Department for Transport's offering TransportDirect -
initially it was criticised for being somewhat ropey, but I think it's
improved since then (though I haven't used it enough to offer a more
informed comment):
http://www.transportdirect.info/

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

There's also the Department for Transport's offering TransportDirect -
initially it was criticised for being somewhat ropey, but I think it's
improved since then (though I haven't used it enough to offer a more
informed comment): http://www.transportdirect.info/

I would bloody well hope it's improved, the amount of money that was
poured into it! It had a long way to come but it is better now.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Nov 25, 7:07 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:11:59 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:





On 25 Nov, 16:39, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 07:23:12 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Prompted by another of today's threads I thought I'd post this.

There is one feature of the TfL Journey Planner I find very useful,
though judging by the reactions from friends and acquaintances when I
point them towards it I don't think it is well known about. It is the
ability to call up a PDF of a bus timetable which appears exactly the
same as those actually displayed at bus stops. (Tram timetables are
available through this facility as well.)

Apologies for raining on your parade but those timetables are not
necessarily the same as appears at local bus stops. It would be good if
they were aligned but they aren't. This aspect of London's information
provision really, really makes me cross.

In addition far too many of the timetables do not show departure times -
they simply say every x-y minutes which in most case cases is downright
misleading. This is because the interval is derived not by a common
sense view of what the actual timetable interval is for the vast
majority of the day but by a computer which goes "what is shortest and
longest intervals between buses between 07.00 and 19.00". Invariably the
answer - due to the way running time is built up or reduced at the peak
shoulders - is something like "7 - 12 minutes". However there may only
be one 7 minute gap in the entire timetable and similarly only one 12
minute gap with 99% of buses actually running at 10 minute intervals.
However the timetable doesn't say this - it gives a load of rubbish
instead.

Here is an example for my local service. I can tell you unreservedly
that the stop info at the stop differs from this. I can also tell you it
is not accurate - the Sunday interval is particularly irksome as it does
not give the minutes past the hour just because there is one 13 minute
interval. The real stop info *does* show the minutes past the hour and
it's essential because who wants to turn up when the bus has just gone
and there's 15 mins to wait? What a mess.

http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__000054bb.pdf

The JP uses per-user dynamic URLs, so that just leads to a 404.

Ooops - sorry.

Anyway, thanks for your more detailed critique of the timetables - I
remember you saying similar things in the past but not in such detail.

Out of interest is the timetable displayed at your local bus stop the
old style full timetable - akin to that served up by the
londonbusroutes.net website? Or is it of the new simplified style,
just not as simplified as the timetables as served up by the JP?

It is a new style stop specific timetable and it is wrong. It does not
match the real timetable *nor* does it match the Journey Planner
edition. TfL has changed the format and size of the JP timetable pdfs
several times but there does not *appear* to be any programme of
reviewing what is correct against what is deployed at bus stops or in
the JP. I may be wrong in saying this and perhaps my bus stop is the
last one in the queue.

I would dearly love the JP timetable section to work as most continental
planners work - i.e. it shows the precise minutes past each hour of the
day that a bus is due at each stop. The system has that information but
it has been decided it won't be displayed. I think that is an error.

I'm afraid I tend to usewww.londonbusroutes.netwhich may be an
"amateur" site but at least gives me real, detailed timetables that I
can print out and carry around with me.
From what you say there would appear to be a degree of
oversimplification. However I'm not sure if you're advocating putting
up full timetables (in the old style ala londonbusroutes.net) at each
bus stop. If so I'd certainly argue that would be a backwards move as
they are simply far less user friendly than displaying simplified
information.

I'm a boring old so and so and I happen to like and can read "proper"
timetables. They at least show differential running times and give you a
fighting chance of being at the stop at the proper scheduled time.

Journey Planner timetables only show indicative off peak running times
and yet the system contains the real running times - it has to in order
to do other things like plan journeys!!! Why if you are extracting a
stop specific timetable are you not allowed to be given that
information?

I am not averse to proper stop specific timetables that show the minutes
past each hour for every hour slot for every day of the week. I remain
convinced that this could easily be shown on the current format for all
services.

05 06 07 08 etc (hours)

05 05 07 07 (mins past the hour)
25 24 15 17
45 34 25 27
44 35 37
52 46 47
59 57 57

This is exactly what Amsterdam are able to do for their bus and tram
services but you also have the option of a boring old conventional
timetable too. For me that would be ideal flexibility. What is the
point of having massive amounts of information held within a system and
then constraining the way in which that information is both accessed and
displayed. Not every user is as thick as pig ****.

I have seen countless examples of people look at the timetable info on
my local stop and search for the minutes past the hour and then give up
because all it says is "every 7-10 minutes". They then look at their
watches and look cross. So much for "simple" information. More people
can cope with real timetable information than has been assumed by TfL in
their justification for this "simple" approach. I'd love to have seen
the market research that apparently supports their decision that people
can't use a real timetable.

Also, on frequent routes during much of the day I'm far from convinced
that knowing the exact times a bus is timetabled to be due at the stop
is that useful, because both traffic conditions and the variable
passenger loading levels mean this can hardly be guaranteed. Also -
and here I will sound very ignorant because that's what I am - do the
buses necessarily always follow the timetable, i.e. aren't the TfL
performance targets more about a frequent service being maintained
rather than running to the precise timetable?

Well I disagree about this supposed "frequent service" nonsense. If a
timetable is not needed for such services why is that Countdown displays
are almost exclusively provided at stops with very high frequency
services. The one at Seven Sisters n/b is served by several services the
most infrequent of which is every 15 minutes. Typically there are up to
10 buses displayed - often all going to the same place and many 1 minute
apart. It is not unusual for there to be 2 or 3 buses on the stop at any
given time. If Countdown is justified for that sort of stop why would a
paper timetable not be justified that showed the planned departures?

The fact that TfL monitor their contracted services under two different
methodologies is irrelevant to the passenger. Just because the aim is
to provide a bus every "x" minutes in the event of disruption does not
mean that TfL or the bus company do not start every day with the
presumption that the service to be offered will match that in the agreed
contractual schedule. That schedule is what forms the public timetable
and it is the schedule that controllers use in order to get buses back
on to the "slots" when it's gone pear shaped. If they did not do this
they'd have buses without crews, buses without fuel and in some cases
linked services (e.g schools) not running.

If timetables are "not important" why does TfL insist that one exists
for every service and why does it agree those timetables and why does it
have to agree any alteration to the timetable and the underlying
schedule? The answer is that the schedule is essential to the effective
running of the service and thus how much that serve costs to run.

A bus every 10 minutes is supposedly frequent - well I'm afraid I prefer
to know when to arrive at the stop for the intended departure time
rather than arrive randomly and see the bus sailing off into the
distance. I accept traffic and other issues can cause the service to
diverge from the timetable but nothing is perfect. This is where I would
like to have a countdown display or the ability to text to get "next
bus" information. Having waited 45 - 50 minutes for a 10 minute service
with no alternative service being available I can tell you that
Countdown displays are much more valuable on lower frequency corridors
if only because if the service is a disaster zone you can make an
informed decision about travelling via a completely different route.
Regrettably I very much doubt that the planned extension of Countdown
type signs will mean such stops gain the displays.

I should have added that I find the JP bus timetable lookup facility
most useful for late, early or night bus times when the results given
are specific.

Agreed but why only for those times of day? It's inconsistent.

You may have gathered that this is a subject I have a few opinions on
;-)


I would certainly rather see a timetable, and I find it even more
important for the Underground than for buses.

The approach of the TfL information seems to be "Tell us where you are
and where you want to go at precisely what moment, and we'll work out
what's good for you".

I prefer to be given all the information and work out what's best for
myself. For example, if I know the full timetables of different lines
and routes, I can make decisions about all kinds of options, like
whether I could change a few stops further on or take a different
route, or what happens if I leave half an hour later etc.

The TfL information tends to require me to spend several minutes
checking one over-specified option after another, without ever giving
me the general picture that would give me my options at a glance.

I may have been confused about the Underground timetables, but I could
only see options for one branch, eg last trains towards Epping, but
when's the last train to Hainault? Am I missing something?

What I also can't find on the TfL site is simple descriptions of where
the bus routes go, as a list of places, as you get on the back of a
bus map. Is that lurking somewhere?

MIG wrote

What I also can't find on the TfL site is simple descriptions of
where
the bus routes go, as a list of places, as you get on the back of a
bus map. Is that lurking somewhere?


Paul Corfield did note that he found http://www.londonbusroutes.net was
better for some things even though a amateur site.

The information you want is there as is the equivalent street
information, eg

R68 Hampton Court - Teddington - Strawberry Vale - Twickenham -
Richmond - Kew Retail Park

Hampton Court Station - Hampton Court Way - Hampton Court Road - Church
Street - Hampton High Street - Wellington Road - Hampton Road - Broad
Street - Teddington High Street - Ferry Road - Manor Road - Twickenham
Road - Strawberry Vale - Cross Deep - King Street - Twickenham - York
Street - Richmond Road - Richmond Bridge - Hill Street - George Street
- The Quadrant - Richmond Station - Kew Road - Lower Mortlake Road -
Lower Richmond Road - South Circular Road - Mortlake Road - Besant
Drive - Kew Retail Park

--
Mike D

On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 03:23:03 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

[enormous snip]

I would certainly rather see a timetable, and I find it even more
important for the Underground than for buses.

Most of the time I'd say it was the other way round for me. Where having
a LU timetable is essential are early morning / late evenings if you
need to travel on a line or a branch where the service can be thin
compared to normal. Knowing when tubes run at say 0700 on a Sunday if
you were heading to an airport or for a train connection is essential
given that 12 or 15 minute gaps can make all the difference. Similarly
who wants to wait 15 minutes between late trains if you can avoid the
wait from knowing what times trains actually depart.

The approach of the TfL information seems to be "Tell us where you are
and where you want to go at precisely what moment, and we'll work out
what's good for you".

I hadn't seen it like that before but I think that's not too far off the
mark with the emphasis on the Journey Planner.

I prefer to be given all the information and work out what's best for
myself. For example, if I know the full timetables of different lines
and routes, I can make decisions about all kinds of options, like
whether I could change a few stops further on or take a different
route, or what happens if I leave half an hour later etc.

Quite true and I prefer to do that sort of planning too. However I
understand that I'm very much the exception and many people are
relatively clueless about the transport network other than those trips
they make very regularly. You only have to witness the confusion that
ensues when a line or a station or a route is disrupted. Most people are
unable to improvise off the back of their own knowledge.

The TfL information tends to require me to spend several minutes
checking one over-specified option after another, without ever giving
me the general picture that would give me my options at a glance.

To be fair to the Journey Planner (what am I saying?!) it does create
journey options that I'd never think about and which having used some of
them were rather elegant in their simplicity.

I may have been confused about the Underground timetables, but I could
only see options for one branch, eg last trains towards Epping, but
when's the last train to Hainault? Am I missing something?

Timetables for LU branches are notoriously bad in the JP timetables
section. I tend to pick the first station past the junction (e.g.
Wanstead for the Hainault branch) and work backwards to find departure
times from earlier stations.

What I also can't find on the TfL site is simple descriptions of where
the bus routes go, as a list of places, as you get on the back of a
bus map. Is that lurking somewhere?

Not that I know off. Even worse the reverse of the Bus Maps are not put
up in pdf format which would provide that summary information.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 03:23:03 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

The approach of the TfL information seems to be "Tell us where you
are and where you want to go at precisely what moment, and we'll
work out what's good for you".

I hadn't seen it like that before but I think that's not too far off
the mark with the emphasis on the Journey Planner.

It is in fact a major strategic fault of the Journey Planner's design. Most
people will not know in advance *precisely* when they will start their
journey. Even if you specify an ideal arrival time, you can't guarantee to
be able to start the journey at the precise time needed for the recommended
route to work.

For many journeys, the JP will offer a bewildering variety of routes, many
dependent on infrequent services. That means that if one connection is
missed because of a late-running service, you're stuffed. I've even seen
some routes in central London that are dependent on bus services that are
not only infrequent but also are non-TfL and on which Travelcards are not
valid!

The type of recommendation that most people want is a route that offers a
reasonably fast route (compared with the fastest possible) with not too many
changes and on which there is a frequent service. You can then choose that
route with confidence even if you're a few minutes adrift from your target
start time. The Journey Planner is sadly hopeless at meeting that common
requirement.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Dec 2, 8:13 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 03:23:03 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:
The approach of the TfL information seems to be "Tell us where you
are and where you want to go at precisely what moment, and we'll
work out what's good for you".

I hadn't seen it like that before but I think that's not too far off
the mark with the emphasis on the Journey Planner.

It is in fact a major strategic fault of the Journey Planner's design. Most
people will not know in advance *precisely* when they will start their
journey. Even if you specify an ideal arrival time, you can't guarantee to
be able to start the journey at the precise time needed for the recommended
route to work.

For many journeys, the JP will offer a bewildering variety of routes, many
dependent on infrequent services. That means that if one connection is
missed because of a late-running service, you're stuffed. I've even seen
some routes in central London that are dependent on bus services that are
not only infrequent but also are non-TfL and on which Travelcards are not
valid!

The type of recommendation that most people want is a route that offers a
reasonably fast route (compared with the fastest possible) with not too many
changes and on which there is a frequent service. You can then choose that
route with confidence even if you're a few minutes adrift from your target
start time. The Journey Planner is sadly hopeless at meeting that common
requirement.


Also, although Paul is right about the surprising elegance of some of
the routes it comes up with, it doesn't allow me to, say, plan how to
visit a particular shop or meet someone on the way which happens to be
on a route that takes ten minutes longer than the ideal one it's
selling me. Simple timetables would allow me to plan such things at a
glance.

Instead I spend double the time having to do two searches on the
journey planner, remembering to go to the advanced options that stop
it giving modes of transport that bypass my meeting place, etc etc.

Incidentally, is it a new bug that makes it clear your search when you
realise that you need advanced options? I keep having to enter my
places again, but I don't think it was always like that.

MIG wrote

On Dec 2, 8:13 pm, "Richard J." wrote:

For many journeys, the JP will offer a bewildering variety of
routes, many
dependent on infrequent services. That means that if one
connection is
missed because of a late-running service, you're stuffed. I've
even seen
some routes in central London that are dependent on bus services
that are
not only infrequent but also are non-TfL and on which Travelcards
are not
valid!

The type of recommendation that most people want is a route that
offers a
reasonably fast route (compared with the fastest possible) with not
too many
changes and on which there is a frequent service. You can then
choose that
route with confidence even if you're a few minutes adrift from your
target
start time. The Journey Planner is sadly hopeless at meeting that
common
requirement.

So give the JP people some feedback and ask for a ranking of routes by
"most robust" based on the frequencies and/or recent punctuality data
of each service used ?

Could make the output even more confusing if JP is also to give the
cost and rank by cost if asked as suggested elsethread.

Also, although Paul is right about the surprising elegance of some of
the routes it comes up with, it doesn't allow me to, say, plan how to
visit a particular shop or meet someone on the way which happens to
be
on a route that takes ten minutes longer than the ideal one it's
selling me. Simple timetables would allow me to plan such things at
a
glance.

Huh ?

select "via", why don't you ?

Of course if you haven't decided where to meet up you are being a bit
unfair.

If you want to shop rather than meet someone then :-

{SE JP} Buttons below the summary allow you to plan a return journey
between the same two locations - just set the date and time you want to
travel back.

Or you can plan an onward journey from your original destination. Just
click the onward journey button and set the next destination (and date
and time) you want to
carry on your journey.

--
Mike D

On Dec 2, 11:19 pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
MIG wrote







On Dec 2, 8:13 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
For many journeys, the JP will offer a bewildering variety of
routes, many
dependent on infrequent services. That means that if one
connection is
missed because of a late-running service, you're stuffed. I've
even seen
some routes in central London that are dependent on bus services
that are
not only infrequent but also are non-TfL and on which Travelcards
are not
valid!

The type of recommendation that most people want is a route that
offers a
reasonably fast route (compared with the fastest possible) with not
too many
changes and on which there is a frequent service. You can then
choose that
route with confidence even if you're a few minutes adrift from your
target
start time. The Journey Planner is sadly hopeless at meeting that
common
requirement.

So give the JP people some feedback and ask for a ranking of routes by
"most robust" based on the frequencies and/or recent punctuality data
of each service used ?

Could make the output even more confusing if JP is also to give the
cost and rank by cost if asked as suggested elsethread.



Also, although Paul is right about the surprising elegance of some of
the routes it comes up with, it doesn't allow me to, say, plan how to
visit a particular shop or meet someone on the way which happens to
be
on a route that takes ten minutes longer than the ideal one it's
selling me. Simple timetables would allow me to plan such things at
a
glance.

Huh ?

select "via", why don't you ?

Of course if you haven't decided where to meet up you are being a bit
unfair.

The minute I get the phone call, naming a place and time that I might
not have known (eg if the other person was travelling unpredictably by
public transport), my downloaded timetables would immediately show me
all the options and I could leave home. The alternative is start the
slow JP process after the call, instead of leaving home, or else to
have laboriously entered every option over the possible period one at
a time and noted the results before I got the call.


If you want to shop rather than meet someone then :-

{SE JP} Buttons below the summary allow you to plan a return journey
between the same two locations - just set the date and time you want to
travel back.

Or you can plan an onward journey from your original destination. Just
click the onward journey button and set the next destination (and date
and time) you want to
carry on your journey.


There is a fundamental difference between transport operators and
passengers (customers). The latter want information in order to
maximise their free choices, while the former are in the habit of
providing directions because, where necessary, that's how they can
control flows of people.

Increasing the options in the control mechanism doesn't address the
fact that I just want information (ie timetables and routes).

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

There's also the Department for Transport's offering TransportDirect -
initially it was criticised for being somewhat ropey, but I think it's
improved since then (though I haven't used it enough to offer a more
informed comment): http://www.transportdirect.info/

I would bloody well hope it's improved, the amount of money that was
poured into it! It had a long way to come but it is better now.


Is it because of the confusion caused by the TfL announcement, which seems
to imply closure at from 0200 Saturday, but probably means 0200 Sunday, ie
the end of the Saturday timetable...

Paul