On 15 Dec, 14:41, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 14 Dec, 17:42, lonelytraveller

wrote:
To the south would
be so far away from the other exits and entrances that it would be
ridiculous connecting to it, so the north is the only sensible place.

But that's where it's going. The safeguarding shows the route as being
along the south side of Euston Road. Sheet
16:http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/...ckney/pdfsheet...
Gosh, Secret Entrance at Buckingham Palace anyone?

It goes very close to the southeast entrance to the WWII bunker at
Goodge Street (now the "Eisenhower Centre" as well.

and the ones that have already
happened at Angel (that's presumably why the cross passages there are
so wide and have very wide fire exit doors in the middle of them).
I presume they connect to the liftshafts and old entrance building
somehow. They're a long way southeast of the current entrance, which
the safeguarding passes west of. I'd think the interchange route would
have to join up at the mid-escalator passageway.
The old entrance is at the west end of the wide north platform (where
southbound trains go), behind the metal doors and half-way up the
wall, via a ladder.

In message , Garry Smith
writes

Noticed last night that the displays now say which zones of the
platform to use.

Yes, noticed this earlier in the week, but on Friday the zone display
was missing. It would be a nice idea if it were reliable; would be even
better to restore the old indication of 4-coach vs 8-coaches on the
displays.

And am I the only one who finds the floor through the main
station and into the FCC station very slippery? Have to ask
Father Xmas for some new soles :-)

I noticed that too - especially on the mezzanine floor. My shoes have
artificial rubber soles and I've not noticed this degree of slipperiness
on any other surface (except ice).


--
Clive Page

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007, lonelytraveller wrote:

To the south would be so far away from the other exits and entrances
that it would be ridiculous connecting to it,

Wouldn't it be as close to the 1960s ticket hall as the Victoria platforms
are, and right under the Circle platforms? It would also be in roughly the
right place to inherit the KX Thameslink exit onto Pentonville Road, no?

If it was right under the circle platforms, then it would probably be in
the same place as the victoria line running tunnels just before the
platforms.

The Victoria platforms are two level above the Northern ones; do the
tunnels dive so quickly to the west that there isn't room for a set of
platforms next to the Northern line? I'd be surprised if that was true.

I'm working from John Rowland's collection of maps he

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...9/ltkxgrey.gif
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...9/ltkxplan.gif
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/ltkxiso.gif

It would have to either be further south, or very very deep, either way
making escalator access very awkward.

I don't think it's as bad as that. Although the presence of the Victoria
line does make plumbing escalators in a bit difficult.

KX Thameslink is far to the south east of the other platforms;

Well, east, anyway. The station building is 150-odd metres east of the
junction of York Road and Euston Road; that junction is very roughly the
eastern end of the Northern line platforms, and the western end of the
Victoria platforms.

anything in the right place for that wouldn't be very convenient for
anything else, unless (again) it was very very deep, so that escalators
at either end could stretch far enough to reach the rest of the tube
platforms as well as KX thameslink.

If the Chelsea-Hackney platforms were to the east, like the Victoria
platforms, a link to the old Thameslink station at their eastern end would
be quite plausible. You'd have a link to the 1960s ticket hall, and
perhaps the Circle platforms, at the western end. You might also manage a
link to the Victoria or Piccadilly platforms at that end - indeed, the
only way to get to the ticket hall might be a link up to the Victoria
concourse, and then up the existing Victoria escalators.

You might even manage a link from the Victoria to the Thameslink station.
Isn't there something like this at the moment?

tom

--
The major advances in civilization are processes that all but wreck the
societies in which they occur. -- Alfred North Whitehead

If it was right under the circle platforms, then it would probably be in
the same place as the victoria line running tunnels just before the
platforms.
The Victoria platforms are two level above the Northern ones; do the
tunnels dive so quickly to the west that there isn't room for a set of
platforms next to the Northern line? I'd be surprised if that was true.
And how would you get an escalator anywhere without it hitting the
victoria line running tunnels (if heading east or west) or the
northern line platforms (if heading north)?

It would only work if it was much deeper than the northern line (so
that escalators could head north without running into the northern
line), or to the north (so that they could head east/west).

KX Thameslink is far to the south east of the other platforms;
Well, east, anyway. The station building is 150-odd metres east of the
junction of York Road and Euston Road; that junction is very roughly the
eastern end of the Northern line platforms, and the western end of the
Victoria platforms.
Its further than the end of the victoria line - the connecting tunnels
are very long, and only just reach the far end of the KX thameslink
platforms.

If the Chelsea-Hackney platforms were to the east, like the Victoria
platforms, a link to the old Thameslink station at their eastern end would
be quite plausible. You'd have a link to the 1960s ticket hall,
How? There isn't any room to fit another connection in. It can't head
through the south wall of the ticket hall because it would bisect the
fleet river and the circle line running tunnels, and if it heads
through the north wall its going in completely the wrong direction -
it would basically meet up with the northern ticket hall tunnels.

perhaps the Circle platforms, at the western end.
The problem with that is that the only way it can go is south or north
from those platforms, because directly underneath them, and to the
east and west of underneath as well, is the victoria line running
tunnel. I've always wondered why they never built the victoria line
platforms there instead - it would have allowed better connections to
the other lines - perhaps there's an additional obstruction around
there as well.

You might also manage a
link to the Victoria or Piccadilly platforms at that end
- indeed, the only way to get to the ticket hall might be a link up to the Victoria
concourse,
The problem with that is there is already an obstruction at the west
end of the Victoria line concourse - the escalators. You can't remove
them to put in a connection to the chelsea-hackney; it would be self-
defeating. And if you put it much further along the concourse you
basically have it facing the wrong direction - it forces people to use
the victoria line platforms themselves just to reach the ticket hall,
which is a recipe for congestion nightmares.
The Piccadilly platforms are even worse - they have escalators to the
ticket hall AND the northern line at that end - the congestion there
is already atrocious, so even if you managed to find a gnats breadth
in which to place the escalators to the chelsea-hackney you'd jam the
entire station due to the congestion.

You might even manage a link from the Victoria to the Thameslink station.
Isn't there something like this at the moment?
There's a long awkward link to the Thameslink station. But sometimes
its quicker to walk on the surface.

The major advances in civilization are processes that all but wreck the
societies in which they occur. -- Alfred North Whitehead
Like Solon?

Well, east, anyway. The station building is 150-odd metres east of the
junction of York Road and Euston Road; that junction is very roughly the
eastern end of the Northern line platforms, and the western end of the
Victoria platforms.
No, its the EASTERN end of the victoria line platforms. And its a very
long way east of the Northern line platforms. From west to east its
basically Northern Line Platforms - (Below the) Tube Ticket Hall -
Victoria Line Platforms - Thameslink.

The eastern end of the northern line platforms are almost directly
under the Tube Ticket Hall, and the western end are almost under St
Pancras; the middle is where that silvery round thing is on the
surface behind the hoarding, and the eastern end is WEST of the round
tiled thing by WH Smith (on WH Smith's western side) - the round tiled
thing is where the old Piccadilly lift shafts were, and the round
silvery thing is where the old Northern line lifts were.

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, lonelytraveller wrote:

Well, east, anyway. The station building is 150-odd metres east of the
junction of York Road and Euston Road; that junction is very roughly
the eastern end of the Northern line platforms, and the western end of
the Victoria platforms.

No, its the EASTERN end of the victoria line platforms.

Is it? Am i misreading this:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...9/ltkxplan.gif

Or is it wrong? Did York Road/Way get moved at some point?

And its a very long way east of the Northern line platforms.

About a hundred metres east; yes, i was wrong about that, sorry - hasty
reading of the map.

From west to east its basically Northern Line Platforms - (Below the)
Tube Ticket Hall - Victoria Line Platforms - Thameslink.

Yes - but that puts the Victoria platforms to the east of the ticket hall,
and roughly at the junction.

The eastern end of the northern line platforms are almost directly under
the Tube Ticket Hall, and the western end are almost under St Pancras;
the middle is where that silvery round thing is on the surface behind
the hoarding,

The Blue Egg!

and the eastern end is WEST of the round tiled thing by WH Smith (on WH
Smith's western side) - the round tiled thing is where the old
Piccadilly lift shafts were, and the round silvery thing is where the
old Northern line lifts were.

Fair enough. Are there any surface markers of the Victoria platforms?

tom

--
Jim-Jammity Jesus Krispy Kreme Christ on a ****-rocket!

Is it? Am i misreading this:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...9/ltkxplan.gif
Or is it wrong? Did York Road/Way get moved at some point?
You are reading it wrong. The KX thameslink platforms are beyond where
the "york curve" meets the "widened lines", all the way on the south
eastern side of the victoria line, far away from the rest of the
complex.

The covered part of the KX Thameslink platforms are the covered bit on
the right, just before the tracks appear, on this aerial photo from
Google Maps:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...&t=h&z=18&om=1

As you can clearly see, its quite a long way from the tube ticket hall
and even york way.

There is however, a slight inaccuracy in the map; you can go directly
from the western platform of the Piccadilly (the one nearest York way)
to the escalators down to the northern line. And it doesn't show any
of the non-public areas (like the old lift shaft areas) apart from the
york and hotel curves.

The york curve was used as a public walkway at one point decades ago,
I'm not sure why that changed.

Yes - but that puts the Victoria platforms to the east of the ticket hall,
and roughly at the junction.
Correct.

Fair enough. Are there any surface markers of the Victoria platforms?
No. They were built in the 1950s, long after lift access had been
replaced by escalator access. The victoria line's escalators cut
through the old lift shafts for the piccadilly (which is the tiled
circular building immediately west of WH smith), and the remaining
parts of the shafts are used for ventilating the victoria line
platforms (it feeds that wierd parallel not-publicly-accessible tunnel
slightly above and to the north of the western half of the westbound
victoria line platform).

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, lonelytraveller wrote:

If it was right under the circle platforms, then it would probably be in
the same place as the victoria line running tunnels just before the
platforms.

The Victoria platforms are two level above the Northern ones; do the
tunnels dive so quickly to the west that there isn't room for a set of
platforms next to the Northern line? I'd be surprised if that was true.

And how would you get an escalator anywhere without it hitting the
victoria line running tunnels (if heading east or west) or the northern
line platforms (if heading north)?

This is tricky, yes - i think you couldn't do a direct link to the ticket
hall. Things i can think of:

- Bring the escalators up to the south of the Circle line, and join the
southern end of the shallow-level passageway that runs from the ticket
hall to the Circle platforms, rather than the ticket hall itself. This is
not a great idea: it means changes from the Chelsea-Hackney to the deep
lines involve coming up four levels and then going back down, via the
not-very-large Circle line passageway. I also don't know how this would
work with respect to gatelines. I'm also not sure how the recent works
have changed the situation in the maps, so this might be totally
implausible. You could do something similar, but instead of joining the
existing passageway, run a second one parallel to it, over the Circle line
and into the ticket hall behind the gateline, but it's still a long
change.

- Link the Chelsea-Hackney platform to the concourse at the southern end
of the Piccadilly platforms, a one-level change. You'd extend the
Piccadilly concourse south across the northbound Northern tunnel (digging
through the wall between the stairs up to the Victoria and the top of the
escalator down to the Northern), then have steps or an escalator down to
the CH platforms. This also provides a one-up, one-down route to the
Northern line, and a two-up route to the Victoria line, so interchanges
would be really easy. But it means the escalators up from the Picc are how
handling all the passengers from the Northern, Picc and CH lines! Possibly
more escalators could be added here.

- Link the CH platform to the Victoria concourse by similar means.
Threading a two-level escalator up between both the Victoria and
Piccadilly lines might be impossible, though - it looks just about doable
on the map, but i don't know.

- Have an escalator coming up three levels immediately to the south of the
Victoria tunnels, which would finish just above them; from there, a short
passageway crossing over the Victoria tunnels, then another escalator up
to the ticket hall. The problem here is the Circle line - the first
escalator might need to emerge, er, into it. Which wouldn't work. If there
isn't enough vertical space between the Victoria and Circle lines, this
wouldn't work. If there was, this would also be a really easy way to
connect to the Circle line - you have a little concourse underneath the
eastern end of the Circle line station, with steps up and west to the
Circle platforms, and up and north to the ticket hall (through the south
wall).

The combination of the escalator to a sub-Circle concourse, with steps up
to the Circle platforms and ticket hall, and the steps up to the
Piccadilly concourse would give you a pretty direct route to all the other
LU platforms and the ticket hall.

KX Thameslink is far to the south east of the other platforms;

Well, east, anyway. The station building is 150-odd metres east of the
junction of York Road and Euston Road; that junction is very roughly the
eastern end of the Northern line platforms, and the western end of the
Victoria platforms.

Its further than the end of the victoria line - the connecting tunnels
are very long, and only just reach the far end of the KX thameslink
platforms.

The *far* end? I'm afraid i've never been down there (and now never will)
- do you mean the end nearest KX, or furthest from it?

If the Chelsea-Hackney platforms were to the east, like the Victoria
platforms, a link to the old Thameslink station at their eastern end would
be quite plausible. You'd have a link to the 1960s ticket hall,

How? There isn't any room to fit another connection in. It can't head
through the south wall of the ticket hall because it would bisect the
fleet river and the circle line running tunnels, and if it heads through
the north wall its going in completely the wrong direction - it would
basically meet up with the northern ticket hall tunnels.

East wall! Between the Victoria and Piccadilly escalators. No, there
probably isn't room.

But if you dig through the south wall, there's enough room before the
Circle line to accommodate a new escalator heading east, beside the
Victoria escalator. Or some steps down to a concourse beneath the Circle
platforms, as i mention above.

perhaps the Circle platforms, at the western end.

The problem with that is that the only way it can go is south or north
from those platforms, because directly underneath them, and to the east
and west of underneath as well, is the victoria line running tunnel.

AIUI, not quite - the Victoria tunnels are a touch to the north. Steps
down from the Circle line platforms (not sure where you'd put them - at
the east end, on either side of the steps going up?) would miss the
Victoria tunnels.

I've always wondered why they never built the victoria line platforms
there instead - it would have allowed better connections to the other
lines - perhaps there's an additional obstruction around there as well.

It looks like the Victoria tubes curve northwards west of the platforms;
if they didn't want the platforms to be curved, they'd have had to bulge
out more to the south of King's Cross, which maybe they didn't want - as
you, say, maybe there's an obstruction.

You might also manage a link to the Victoria or Piccadilly platforms at
that end - indeed, the only way to get to the ticket hall might be a
link up to the Victoria concourse,

The problem with that is there is already an obstruction at the west end
of the Victoria line concourse - the escalators. You can't remove them
to put in a connection to the chelsea-hackney; it would be self-
defeating. And if you put it much further along the concourse you
basically have it facing the wrong direction - it forces people to use
the victoria line platforms themselves just to reach the ticket hall,
which is a recipe for congestion nightmares.

You'd widen the concourse at the foot of the escalators, so that people
could walk round them, on to a set of steps going down. There's just about
room for this.

The Piccadilly platforms are even worse - they have escalators to the
ticket hall AND the northern line at that end - the congestion there is
already atrocious, so even if you managed to find a gnats breadth in
which to place the escalators to the chelsea-hackney you'd jam the
entire station due to the congestion.

I agree that it would be unwise to make this the only route up from the
CH. It would be a useful way to do interchange, though, and i think it
could be done. You might need to remodel the Victoria staircase a little
bit.

The major advances in civilization are processes that all but wreck the
societies in which they occur. -- Alfred North Whitehead

Like Solon?

Like everything from the invention of agriculture through to the extension
of the East London Line!

tom

--
Jim-Jammity Jesus Krispy Kreme Christ on a ****-rocket!

And how would you get an escalator anywhere without it hitting the
victoria line running tunnels (if heading east or west) or the northern
line platforms (if heading north)?
This is tricky, yes - i think you couldn't do a direct link to the ticket
hall. Things i can think of:
- Bring the escalators up to the south of the Circle line, and join the
southern end of the shallow-level passageway that runs from the ticket
hall to the Circle platforms, rather than the ticket hall itself. This is
not a great idea: it means changes from the Chelsea-Hackney to the deep
lines involve coming up four levels and then going back down, via the
not-very-large Circle line passageway. I also don't know how this would
work with respect to gatelines.
It would cause huge congestion at one of the most dangerous places for
it - the top of the main escalators.

I'm also not sure how the recent works
have changed the situation in the maps, so this might be totally
implausible. You could do something similar, but instead of joining the
existing passageway, run a second one parallel to it, over the Circle line
and into the ticket hall behind the gateline, but it's still a long
change.
No you couldn't, if you did that you'd hit the fleet river; it runs
under the ring passage where the booking windows are, and then round
under the passage at the top of the steps from the circle line, hence
the reason they kept the five or so steps instead of making the
passage the same level as the rest of the bit behind the gateline.

- Link the Chelsea-Hackney platform to the concourse at the southern end
of the Piccadilly platforms, a one-level change.
Absolutely no room. The Northern line escalators AND the Picadilly
line escalators are both situated there, and its heavily congested at
the best of times; really bad idea. Such a bad idea in fact that they
are already going to close up the side passage with steps from the
victoria line down to there as soon as the northern ticket hall
passages open, because it causes too many problems.

Possibly more escalators could be added here.
How? Its solid escalator round there until you hit the running tunnels
themselves.

- Link the CH platform to the Victoria concourse by similar means.
Threading a two-level escalator up between both the Victoria and
Piccadilly lines might be impossible, though - it looks just about doable
on the map, but i don't know.
Its do-able if you ignore the need for walls, and the structural
support to the tubes, and the passages above them, that walls give.
The space between them is about 10 metres at most, and it really
wouldn't support the weight. Plus it gets narrower as you get closer
to the tube ticket hall until there's zero room left; escalator steps
are fixed width, and don't narrow the higher up you go (and such an
invention would be very dangerous at the top).

- Have an escalator coming up three levels immediately to the south of the
Victoria tunnels, which would finish just above them; from there, a short
passageway crossing over the Victoria tunnels, then another escalator up
to the ticket hall.
The problem here is that there is nowhere for them to meet the ticket
hall at.

The problem here is the Circle line - the first
escalator might need to emerge, er, into it.
Yes, or pass through the fleet river, which is another impossibility.

If there was, this would also be a really easy way to
connect to the Circle line - you have a little concourse underneath the
eastern end of the Circle line station, with steps up and west to the
Circle platforms, and up and north to the ticket hall (through the south
wall).
You could do that of course, but that's somewhat impractical - far too
many steps involved. A new line and its the worst for step free
access?

The combination of the escalator to a sub-Circle concourse, with steps up
to the Circle platforms and ticket hall, and the steps up to the
Piccadilly concourse would give you a pretty direct route to all the other
LU platforms and the ticket hall.
Sub circle is fine for circle line interchange and exit, but its
absolutely rubbish for interchange with any of the other lines - all
the way up, then up some steps, then down some steps, and down more
escalators? I'm also thinking congestion.

Its further than the end of the victoria line - the connecting tunnels
are very long, and only just reach the far end of the KX thameslink
platforms.
The *far* end? I'm afraid i've never been down there (and now never will)
- do you mean the end nearest KX, or furthest from it?
I mean the end nearest KX, the western end of the thameslink
platforms. The eastern end is even further away. The whole of the KX
thameslink platforms are very far away from the rest of the station

But if you dig through the south wall, there's enough room before the
Circle line to accommodate a new escalator heading east, beside the
Victoria escalator. Or some steps down to a concourse beneath the Circle
platforms, as i mention above.
South wall of what? There's a river behind the south wall of the tube
ticket hall. And there are tube running tunnels to cross first at the
south wall of everything else.

perhaps the Circle platforms, at the western end.
The problem with that is that the only way it can go is south or north
from those platforms, because directly underneath them, and to the east
and west of underneath as well, is the victoria line running tunnel.
AIUI, not quite - the Victoria tunnels are a touch to the north. Steps
down from the Circle line platforms (not sure where you'd put them - at
the east end, on either side of the steps going up?) would miss the
Victoria tunnels.
You could do it with some awkward steps, but they would be very
awkward, and far too many steps (since you have to add on the steps to
get to the circle line in the first place). And you still need two
different exits to comply with Health & Safety.

I've always wondered why they never built the victoria line platforms
there instead - it would have allowed better connections to the other
lines - perhaps there's an additional obstruction around there as well.
It looks like the Victoria tubes curve northwards west of the platforms;
if they didn't want the platforms to be curved, they'd have had to bulge
out more to the south of King's Cross, which maybe they didn't want - as
you, say, maybe there's an obstruction.
They head towards Euston, just like the circle line and northern line.
I'm not sure why they might look like they curve in that diagram, its
probably just an illusion due to the two running tunnels approaching
each other, after being far apart to fit the platforms in.

You'd widen the concourse at the foot of the escalators, so that people
could walk round them, on to a set of steps going down. There's just about
room for this.
There's a great big hole on the northern side (not shown your map),
and you'd need to go quite far around them if you wanted to make sure
there was enough wall between the escalators and you to ensure
structural integrity of the tunnels above you.

Take a look at westminster jubilee line and look at how absolutely
huge the space taken up by escalators is; well you need that much
space plus a lot more to provide wall support to hold up the ground
above.

The Piccadilly platforms are even worse - they have escalators to the
ticket hall AND the northern line at that end - the congestion there is
already atrocious, so even if you managed to find a gnats breadth in
which to place the escalators to the chelsea-hackney you'd jam the
entire station due to the congestion.
I agree that it would be unwise to make this the only route up from the
CH. It would be a useful way to do interchange,
No, it really wouldn't. There's already a narrow interchange passage
there to the victoria line, and they want to block it up because it
causes such bad congestion with the piccadilly and northern line
access - imagine how much worse it would be if it was a proper
interchange connection.

The major advances in civilization are processes that all but wreck the
societies in which they occur. -- Alfred North Whitehead
Like Solon?
Like everything from the invention of agriculture through to the extension
of the East London Line!
Solon invented democracy.

In article
,
(lonelytraveller) wrote:

The york curve was used as a public walkway at one point decades
ago, I'm not sure why that changed.

When do you think that was? It was in railway use until closed for the GN
electrification, in 1975(?). That was before Thameslink.

--
Colin Rosenstiel