Paul Scott wrote:

wrote:

(snip)

b) I noticed that one train had Southern markings on it. Why

Could be one of the four units transferred from Southern to FCC yesterday,
the other 8 are to transfer over the next year.

Would definitely have been one of them.


c) I saw a 317 pull into the station. Where would that train have come
from and why would it be operating on Thameslink? I thought that they
would exclusively run 319s.

Moorgate, but don't know the details of how and why.


Peak times working to/from Moorgate.

I'll copy this less than perfectly constructed paragraph from
Wikipedia's article on the 317s:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...apital_Connect

"Two of the First Capital Connect (FCC) class 317s have now
transferred to the 'Thameslink' services. They operate particularly on
Moorgate to Bedford services. They are usually out only during the
peak, and on Saturday and Sunday they are allocated to be stabled in
Cricklewood Depot."

On 10 Dec, 20:54, wrote:
Moorgate, but don't know the details of how and why.

The 317s (or at least some of them) were built for the pre-Thameslink
electric service to Moorgate, and FCC have borrowed some back to use
some in this role to free up 319s. 317s don't have third rail pickups,
so they can't run south over the main route.

I thought that FCC would run be running 317s out of the other terminal at
Moorgate, via Finsbury Park and Welwyn Garden City.

I don't think anything but 313s has ever gone that way. And again,
317s don't have third rail, so couldn't anyway.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...
On 10 Dec, 20:54, wrote:
Moorgate, but don't know the details of how and why.

The 317s (or at least some of them)...

All of them...

...were built for the pre-Thameslink
electric service to Moorgate, and FCC have borrowed some back to use
some in this role to free up 319s. 317s don't have third rail pickups,
so they can't run south over the main route.

The 317s were very advanced trains for their time. They were the first
trains to have retention bogs, for the underground section to Moorgate [1].
The need for this was accentuated by the tight clearances, which
necessitated slab track and results in the distinctive roaring noise on the
curves north of KXTL. I remember seeing a photo of the gauge clearance tests
they did with a few inches of polystyrene on the outside of two trains which
they positioned at the pinch points on the curves - it was very tight.

[1] I believe some genius actually removed these later.

I thought that FCC would run be running 317s out of the other terminal at
Moorgate, via Finsbury Park and Welwyn Garden City.

I don't think anything but 313s has ever gone that way. And again,
317s don't have third rail, so couldn't anyway.

You are correct about the 313s - they are the only stock cleared for this
line, because the loading gauge is tube-size - or only slightly bigger.
That's why the section from Finsbury Park (or is the changeover at Drayton
Park? - I can never remember) had to retain the third rail for use by the
dual voltage 313s. This was quite a clever patchwork job done when the GN
suburban lines were electrified in the mid-1970s, linking the old Northern
City with the GN main at Finsbury Park.

Regards

Jonathan

On Dec 10, 10:15 pm, "Jonathan Morton"
wrote:

The 317s were very advanced trains for their time. They were the first
trains to have retention bogs, for the underground section to Moorgate [1].
[1] I believe some genius actually removed these later.

That's the first time I've heard that - is it definitely true?

You are correct about the 313s - they are the only stock cleared for this
line, because the loading gauge is tube-size - or only slightly bigger.

Quite a lot bigger than tube (or Tube) gauge, though you're right that
not all standard EMUs would fit through the tunnel. 313s are at least
as big as LU sub-surface stock though...

"Rupert Candy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 10, 10:15 pm, "Jonathan Morton"
wrote:

The 317s were very advanced trains for their time. They were the first
trains to have retention bogs, for the underground section to Moorgate
[1].
[1] I believe some genius actually removed these later.

That's the first time I've heard that - is it definitely true?

The first bit is certainly true. They were also the first units designed for
DOO - and stood in the sidings for months in consequence until the dispute
was sorted out.

You are correct about the 313s - they are the only stock cleared for this
line, because the loading gauge is tube-size - or only slightly bigger.

Quite a lot bigger than tube (or Tube) gauge, though you're right that
not all standard EMUs would fit through the tunnel. 313s are at least
as big as LU sub-surface stock though...

Yes, I guess they are. On reflection, I don't think I've ever been on one.
But they are significantly smaller than the 317s (which were Mk3-derived
IIRC). Several of them wiped their pantographs off on the tunnel entrance in
the early months of the GN electrification.

Regards

Jonathan

"Jonathan Morton" wrote in
message ...
"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...

I don't think anything but 313s has ever gone that way. And again,
317s don't have third rail, so couldn't anyway.

You are correct about the 313s - they are the only stock cleared for this
line, because the loading gauge is tube-size - or only slightly bigger.

I would have thought the tunnels were of 'normal' main line gauge, just
without sufficient clearance for OHLE. That was always given as one of the
reasons the Moorgate crash was so disastrous, as the train was not
constrained by the tunnel walls, and cars were able to ride over one
another.

Paul S

Roland Perry wrote:

snip

b) I noticed that one train had Southern markings on it. Why

8 units leased from Southern (another 48 in the pipeline).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319

The article says 48 *coaches* (which make up 12 units). In fact, 4 of
those 12 units have recently been transferred (which means that 12
Southern 319s are now part of the FCC fleet), consequently that leaves 8
more units to be transferred by next December. Once FCC have refrshed
their own units then they'll refresh the Southern 319s.

On 10 Dec, 22:33, "Jonathan Morton"
wrote:
Yes, I guess they are. On reflection, I don't think I've ever been on one.
But they are significantly smaller than the 317s (which were Mk3-derived
IIRC).

Not really. SWT have some trains formed of both body types:
http://www.semg.org.uk/gallery/class455_02.html

The middle carriage in the first photo is identical to a 313, the
others are Mk3. I'm not certain the tunnels need special stock at all.

Several of them wiped their pantographs off on the tunnel entrance in
the early months of the GN electrification.

I think we established on a uk.t.l thread recently this couldn't have
happened.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan Morton" wrote in
message ...
"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...

I don't think anything but 313s has ever gone that way. And again,
317s don't have third rail, so couldn't anyway.

You are correct about the 313s - they are the only stock cleared for this
line, because the loading gauge is tube-size - or only slightly bigger.

I would have thought the tunnels were of 'normal' main line gauge, just
without sufficient clearance for OHLE. That was always given as one of
the reasons the Moorgate crash was so disastrous, as the train was not
constrained by the tunnel walls, and cars were able to ride over one
another.

I believe you are right about that last point. [1]

I should have said the gauge was "less than main line" - it is (as you say)
appreciably bigger than the various LU gauges.

[1] Moorgate shudder remains one of those "you remember where you were"
moments.

Regards

Jonathan

Jonathan Morton wrote:
"Rupert Candy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 10, 10:15 pm, "Jonathan Morton"
wrote:


snip

The 317s were very advanced trains for their time. They were the first
trains to have retention bogs, for the underground section to Moorgate
[1].
[1] I believe some genius actually removed these later.
That's the first time I've heard that - is it definitely true?

The first bit is certainly true. They were also the first units designed for
DOO - and stood in the sidings for months in consequence until the dispute
was sorted out.

You are correct about the 313s - they are the only stock cleared for this
line, because the loading gauge is tube-size - or only slightly bigger.
Quite a lot bigger than tube (or Tube) gauge, though you're right that
not all standard EMUs would fit through the tunnel. 313s are at least
as big as LU sub-surface stock though...

Yes, I guess they are. On reflection, I don't think I've ever been on one.
But they are significantly smaller than the 317s (which were Mk3-derived
IIRC). Several of them wiped their pantographs off on the tunnel entrance in
the early months of the GN electrification.

Before I actually rode a 313 I assumed that they were very small, but as
it turns out the 313s are as wide and tall as 319s. (See
http://tinyurl.com/25o3bx and http://tinyurl.com/yszz75)

That said, 319s were built with DC bus lines that operate when running
on 3rd-rail networks and are apparently banned from operating to
Moorgate GN because the Northern City Line is classed as an
'underground' line (313s were not built with DC bus lines). Do a Google
Groups search for 'EMUs on Thameslink' and you'll see what I mean.

I'm surprised Nick hasn't said anything yet...