On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Peter Masson wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
20:56:20 on Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Tom Anderson
remarked:

Bonus question: to get from Newbury Park to Swindon, should i do:

- Central Line to Liverpool Street, H&C/Circle to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Oxford Circus, Bakerloo to Paddington, train to Swindon

That would be my best guess.

- Central Line to Lancaster Gate, walk to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Ealing Broadway, train(s) to Swindon

Another possibility is Central Line to Mile End then H&C to Paddington.
Mile End is a cross-platform interchange.

True. Better than changing at Liverpool Street, perhaps, although it means
i'd have to wait for an H&C instead of being able to catch a Circle, and
one of Beck's Laws (see utl passim) says that this guarantees an endless
procession of District trains!

tom

--
.... to build a space elevator, that's got to be hundreds of thousands
of pounds ... -- Mike Froggatt

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Bonus question: to get from Newbury Park to Swindon, should i do:

- Central Line to Liverpool Street, H&C/Circle to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Oxford Circus, Bakerloo to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Lancaster Gate, walk to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Ealing Broadway, train(s) to Swindon

My vote is definitely with the Central Line to Lancaster Gate then
walking to Paddington, it's not very far at all - take a left into
Spring Street, or indeed a right into Craven Road...
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=526711&y=180796

Yes, it looks like a few hundred metres on the map, no problem.

I'm hoping i'll be able to send things ahead of me in a car, so i won't
have anything at all to carry.

Trains for Swindon don't stop at Ealing Broadway.

Oh well. I could get one to Reading and change. Probably not a fast way to
get anywhere, though, especially given that it involves taking the Central
line out there.

tom

--
.... to build a space elevator, that's got to be hundreds of thousands
of pounds ... -- Mike Froggatt

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Dec, 21:39, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote:

Does anyone know for sure what's happening in terms of trains and buses?

If you look at the page for Norwich http://www.onerailway.com/latest_inf...07_engineering...
it shows the buses from Colchester to Liverpool St given by the NR planner.

I guess One are trying to spread the load over different routes
although it seems a bit sneaky to not tell people about all the
possible alternatives.

I came across a similar situation a few years back on a Norwich to
London journey. Information gleaned from two calls to NRE, a
consultation of the NR WAP site and a conversation with someone else
doing that journey resulted in me being confused!

I though we were to get tipped out of the train at Ingatestone (or was
it Shenfield - I can't remember!), on to a bus to a station closer
somewhere else, then back on a train to get into Liverpool Street. In
fact when I got to Ingatestone all the London-bound passengers were
herded on to a coach direct to Liverpool Street. I think I could have
got a bus then got back on the train, but I opted for the easy way.

Not surprised. This sounds like an all-too-typical British railway
experience!

So the OP might have to be on the ball when they get to Ingatestone if
they want to get to Newbury Park. Presumably, technically speaking if he
wants to get on the rail replacement bus to Newbury Park tube station
he'd need a rail ticket valid for at least some of the journey beyond
Ingatestone - but I doubt anyone would check his ticket before they let
him on the bus.

I'd have one anyway, seeing as how i want to get to Swindon at the end of
it.

tom

--
.... to build a space elevator, that's got to be hundreds of thousands
of pounds ... -- Mike Froggatt

On 11 Dec, 02:13, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:
On 10 Dec, 21:39, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote:

Does anyone know for sure what's happening in terms of trains and buses?

If you look at the page for Norwich
http://www.onerailway.com/latest_inf...07_engineering...
it shows the buses from Colchester to Liverpool St given by the NR planner.

I guess One are trying to spread the load over different routes
although it seems a bit sneaky to not tell people about all the
possible alternatives.

I came across a similar situation a few years back on a Norwich to
London journey. Information gleaned from two calls to NRE, a
consultation of the NR WAP site and a conversation with someone else
doing that journey resulted in me being confused!

I though we were to get tipped out of the train at Ingatestone (or was
it Shenfield - I can't remember!), on to a bus to a station closer
somewhere else, then back on a train to get into Liverpool Street. In
fact when I got to Ingatestone all the London-bound passengers were
herded on to a coach direct to Liverpool Street. I think I could have
got a bus then got back on the train, but I opted for the easy way.

Not surprised. This sounds like an all-too-typical British railway
experience!

Some of the information on the National Rail website - specifically
the planned engineering works page (under the service bulletins
heading) - is terrible. I came across an example fairly - I think it
was concerning weekend disruption to FCC Thameslink cross-London
services and the subsequent changes, but it was incredibly confusing,
and the accompanying blurb and map and details of bus replacements was
incomprehensible. It wasn't the first time I saw this either.

People bitch about inaccurate or conflicting information given by the
NRE call centre, but the call centre staff will be working on the
basis of this sometimes terrible and confusing information provided -
i.e. they'll be looking at the very same stuff - so I don't blame them
for not always knowing or understanding what's going on.


So the OP might have to be on the ball when they get to Ingatestone if
they want to get to Newbury Park. Presumably, technically speaking if he
wants to get on the rail replacement bus to Newbury Park tube station
he'd need a rail ticket valid for at least some of the journey beyond
Ingatestone - but I doubt anyone would check his ticket before they let
him on the bus.

I'd have one anyway, seeing as how i want to get to Swindon at the end of
it.

tom


Yes - I did think that just after I'd posted it - but then I thought
of a complication... but I've just resolved it!

Your ticket from East Angular will of course get you as far as
Liverpool Street on the Central line. You will also presumably have an
inclusive cross-London transfer, as indicated by a Maltese cross on
your ticket (or perhaps even a separately issued ticket for the cross-
London Underground journey)...

But cross-London LU journeys are for passengers making a transfer
between London mainline termini - and Lancaster Gate is not a mainline
terminus, not do I think it counts as one. Whether

But I was quite unsure of whether a Liverpool Street to Lancaster Gate
journey would count as a cross-London transfer - as Lancaster Gate
isn't a terminus station. But after rummaging around the Natonal Fares
Manual and when I was just about to give up I found the list - it's in
Section A, on page A4 [1] - and top-marks to those who decide on
these rules, as Lancaster Gate is indeed on the list.

And the list is actually pretty sensible - the rule is simply this:
"Tickets displaying the 'cross-London' marker are valid for travel
between any two of the following stations appropriate to the route of
the through rail journey being made."

Valid transfers thus include Stratford to Lancaster Gate or even
Ealing Broadway, Lewisham or Greenwich to Stratford (via DLR),
Tottenham Hale to Victoria, Richmond to Paddington (or indeed Euston
or KXSP), Vauxhall to Euston/KXSP, Elephant & Castle to Marylebone,
West Hampstead to Waterloo or London Bridge...

The possibilities aren't endless, but they are plentiful. Wacky
changes via Upminster are even possible (though perhaps a reasonable-
ish choice for someone with impaired mobility or luggage full of gold
bars), as well as the rather more sane inclusion of Southwark tube
station for Waterloo East.

Some stations have fallen off the list - I've a vague recollection of
having read past uk.r discussions on this issue - I think the list
used to include Brixton - not that useful, and New Cross - potentially
quite useful, at least until the ELL closes. New Cross Gate is on the
list - if it is still on the list in January then I guess a National
Rail ticket replete with Maltese cross would be valid on the
replacement buses and also the Jubilee line and DLR. I can foresee
potential difficulties with using such a ticket in practice!

All in all an interesting list, one that I'd seen before but perhaps I
hadn't properly appreciated it's, er, 'artisanship'.


-----
[1] National Fares Manual - Section A (PDF)
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...7_Common_A.pdf

National Fares Manual - section listings
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passen...s/manuals.html

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 02:09:55 +0000, Tom Anderson wrote:

Bonus question: to get from Newbury Park to Swindon, should i do:

- Central Line to Liverpool Street, H&C/Circle to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Oxford Circus, Bakerloo to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Lancaster Gate, walk to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Ealing Broadway, train(s) to Swindon

Trains for Swindon don't stop at Ealing Broadway.

Oh well. I could get one to Reading and change. Probably not a fast way to
get anywhere, though, especially given that it involves taking the Central
line out there.

The Central to EB is actually barely slower at all than getting off at
Lancaster Gate and getting FGW there. It's the stopper from EB to
Reading that's the deal-breaker.

In message , at 21:31:01 on Mon, 10 Dec
2007, Peter Masson remarked:
Bonus question: to get from Newbury Park to Swindon, should i do:

- Central Line to Liverpool Street, H&C/Circle to Paddington, train to
Swindon
- Central Line to Oxford Circus, Bakerloo to Paddington, train to Swindon

That would be my best guess.

- Central Line to Lancaster Gate, walk to Paddington, train to Swindon
- Central Line to Ealing Broadway, train(s) to Swindon

Another possibility is Central Line to Mile End then H&C to Paddington. Mile
End is a cross-platform interchange.

I was picking the one that gives the fastest journey time (approx 45
mins - see tfl planner) and doesn't use sub-surface lines which always
seem to be the first ones to get reduced/disrupted service outside of
the weekday peaks.
--
Roland Perry

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Some of the information on the National Rail website - specifically
the planned engineering works page (under the service bulletins
heading) - is terrible. I came across an example fairly - I think it
was concerning weekend disruption to FCC Thameslink cross-London
services and the subsequent changes, but it was incredibly confusing,
and the accompanying blurb and map and details of bus replacements
was incomprehensible. It wasn't the first time I saw this either.

Interesting as it seems to point to a general FCC problem. We had
terrible problems with their information on the guided bus works closures
at the South end of Cambridge station in September. I had quite a
correspondence with FCC, including Elaine Holt, after which things did
improve somewhat. They did blame Network Rail for lack of timely
information, though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Tom Anderson wrote:
Evening all,

Rambling and slightly self-indulgent post, sorry. Feel free to ignore!

I would really rather like to make a 150-mile journey across the country
on Christmas Eve, from Wivenhoe (near Colchester, out in Essex) to
Swindon. Oh, the joys of the fissioned nuclear family.

I tried to travel from Wivenhoe last Christmas Eve and nearly got
stranded because the coach drivers (at Colchester) started going home
without permission. Go as early as possible, else try the 23rd!

As nice as Wivenhoe might be at Christmas, I know that the University
tends to become quite deserted (which if you are a resident can be nice
or bad depending on you perspective!).

Tony

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 11 Dec, 02:13, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

So the OP might have to be on the ball when they get to Ingatestone if
they want to get to Newbury Park. Presumably, technically speaking if he
wants to get on the rail replacement bus to Newbury Park tube station
he'd need a rail ticket valid for at least some of the journey beyond
Ingatestone - but I doubt anyone would check his ticket before they let
him on the bus.

I'd have one anyway, seeing as how i want to get to Swindon at the end
of it.

Yes - I did think that just after I'd posted it - but then I thought
of a complication... but I've just resolved it!

Your ticket from East Angular will of course get you as far as
Liverpool Street on the Central line. You will also presumably have an
inclusive cross-London transfer, as indicated by a Maltese cross on
your ticket (or perhaps even a separately issued ticket for the cross-
London Underground journey)...

But cross-London LU journeys are for passengers making a transfer
between London mainline termini - and Lancaster Gate is not a mainline
terminus, not do I think it counts as one.

Ooh, good thinking.

But I was quite unsure of whether a Liverpool Street to Lancaster Gate
journey would count as a cross-London transfer - as Lancaster Gate isn't
a terminus station. But after rummaging around the Natonal Fares Manual
and when I was just about to give up I found the list - it's in Section
A, on page A4 [1] - and top-marks to those who decide on these rules, as
Lancaster Gate is indeed on the list.

And good thinking LU! Or, er, NR.

Some stations have fallen off the list - I've a vague recollection of
having read past uk.r discussions on this issue - I think the list used
to include Brixton - not that useful, and New Cross - potentially quite
useful, at least until the ELL closes.

And doubly so when you can get to Highbury & Islington from there.
Although by then it won't be a LU line, i suppose.

Does anyone know how the Overground is treated for routing and transfers?
As part of LU, or as a railway line in its own right? Presumably the
latter for the existing bits; i'd hope the extended ELL will join it.

tom

--
I sometimes think that the IETF is one of the crown jewels in all of
western civilization. -- Tim O'Reilly

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Tony Chung wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

I would really rather like to make a 150-mile journey across the
country on Christmas Eve, from Wivenhoe (near Colchester, out in Essex)
to Swindon. Oh, the joys of the fissioned nuclear family.

I tried to travel from Wivenhoe last Christmas Eve and nearly got
stranded because the coach drivers (at Colchester) started going home
without permission. Go as early as possible, else try the 23rd!

Erk. This is not what i wanted to hear! It'll probably be a good idea to
phone ahead to Colchester North and ask whether the coaches are still
running before i set off.

As nice as Wivenhoe might be at Christmas, I know that the University
tends to become quite deserted (which if you are a resident can be nice
or bad depending on you perspective!).

As a villager, it's pretty much a non-issue!

tom

--
I sometimes think that the IETF is one of the crown jewels in all of
western civilization. -- Tim O'Reilly