On 20 Jan, 20:01, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mwmbwls" wrote

I don't think that it was geology that was the dominant blocker. Under
the New Works Programme, undertaken to relieve the Depression,
parliamentary powers were obtained in 1931 to build the Camberwell
extension.with a terminus under Camberwell Green However, London
Transport were not convinced that the route would pay.and the project
was postponed. The Camberwell powers were renewed in 1955 prolonging
their validity to 1961 but were allowed to lapse in favour of the
Victoria Line extension to Brixton. In 1963 the London Transport board
considered an extension to Peckham. The 1974 London Rail Study
believed the cost benefit case to be weak and so Camberwell like
sleeping beauty nodded off until most recently in 2006

Of course, Camberwell used to have trains to Farringdon, Kings Cross, and
Moorgate - but Camberwell New Road station was closed in 1916. Quite a lot
of it is still there.

Peter


Whilst the station was indeed called "Camberwell New Road" for most of
its life (1963 - 1908), it opened as "Camberwell" in 1862 - and when
it closed in 1916 it also went by that name. All according to
SubBrit's Disused Stations entry:

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...ad/index.shtml


Of course when any extension of the Bakerloo to Camberwell is mooted,
the idea of reopening this station (or at least opening a new station
on this line nearby) will always come up as a cheaper alternative. If
there were to be a new or reopened station then the decision as to
what lines it would serve would have to be made - there are two pairs
of tracks, one carries the FCC Thameslink service from Elephant &
Castle down to the Sutton loop, the other carries the Southeastern
service from Blackfriars and then the Elephant down to Sevenoaks.

The Thameslink service is every 15 minutes, whilst the Southeastern
service is only half-hourly - and the Southeastern trains already stop
at Denmark Hill, on the southern edge of Camberwell. Thus it would be
most attractive if a new Camberwell station was served by the more
frequent Thameslink trains, though platforms could be constructed on
both lines so it could thus be a stop for both services.

I guess the Southeastern service could itself become more frequent,
with trains every 15 minutes. One issue would be whether the
Southeastern service, even a more frequent one, would actually be that
attractive to passenger from Camberwell - it only goes to Blackfriars,
which is itself unlikely to be the final destination for most people,
and which only has interchange with the east/west Circle and District
lines. Of course passengers arriving at Blackfriars could also change
on to Thameslink trains there to get further north - but at present at
least Thameslink does not provide a service akin to an Underground
line, with trains almost crawling through the central part of the
route (something I hope that will be remedied under the Thameslink
2000 project aka the "Thameslink Programme").

Passengers from Camberwell on the Southeastern service to Blackfriars
could also change at Elephant & Castle for the Bakerloo and Northern
lines - but this isn't a very convenient interchange at all, so
passengers might well choose to go by bus to the Elephant (or indeed
stay on their bus) - and it'd be unlikely that passengers would get
off their bus at Camberwell just to get on a train only as far as the
Elephant.

If Thameslink trains stopped at Camberwell, or passengers were
encouraged to transfer to Thameslink at Blackfriars, then one ends up
with the crucial question of whether there is enough capacity -
Thameslink is already a very busy route as it is at peak times, so
could it handle yet more passengers even if all the trains were 8
carriages long?

Whilst having a station at Camberwell would, IMO, be a good thing
(though existing passengers might well disapprove given the increase
in journeys times an extra station would bring) I'd caution anyone who
was tempted to think that it would be a cheaper yet effective
substitute for an extension of the Bakerloo line.


[I use the name of the TOC "Southeastern" above simply for the ease of
reference it provides - of course in a few years time the franchisee
could go under a completely different moniker.]

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On 20 Jan, 20:01, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mwmbwls" wrote

I don't think that it was geology that was the dominant blocker. Under
the New Works Programme, undertaken to relieve the Depression,
parliamentary powers were obtained in 1931 to build the Camberwell
extension.with a terminus under Camberwell Green However, London
Transport were not convinced that the route would pay.and the project
was postponed. The Camberwell powers were renewed in 1955 prolonging
their validity to 1961 but were allowed to lapse in favour of the
Victoria Line extension to Brixton. In 1963 the London Transport board
considered an extension to Peckham. The 1974 London Rail Study
believed the cost benefit case to be weak and so Camberwell like
sleeping beauty nodded off until most recently in 2006

Of course, Camberwell used to have trains to Farringdon, Kings Cross, and
Moorgate - but Camberwell New Road station was closed in 1916. Quite a
lot
of it is still there.

Peter


Whilst the station was indeed called "Camberwell New Road" for most of
its life (1963 - 1908), it opened as "Camberwell" in 1862 - and when
it closed in 1916 it also went by that name. All according to
SubBrit's Disused Stations entry:

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...ad/index.shtml


Of course when any extension of the Bakerloo to Camberwell is mooted,
the idea of reopening this station (or at least opening a new station
on this line nearby) will always come up as a cheaper alternative. If
there were to be a new or reopened station then the decision as to
what lines it would serve would have to be made - there are two pairs
of tracks, one carries the FCC Thameslink service from Elephant &
Castle down to the Sutton loop, the other carries the Southeastern
service from Blackfriars and then the Elephant down to Sevenoaks.

The Thameslink service is every 15 minutes, whilst the Southeastern
service is only half-hourly - and the Southeastern trains already stop
at Denmark Hill, on the southern edge of Camberwell. Thus it would be
most attractive if a new Camberwell station was served by the more
frequent Thameslink trains, though platforms could be constructed on
both lines so it could thus be a stop for both services.

I guess the Southeastern service could itself become more frequent,
with trains every 15 minutes. One issue would be whether the
Southeastern service, even a more frequent one, would actually be that
attractive to passenger from Camberwell - it only goes to Blackfriars,
which is itself unlikely to be the final destination for most people,
and which only has interchange with the east/west Circle and District
lines. Of course passengers arriving at Blackfriars could also change
on to Thameslink trains there to get further north - but at present at
least Thameslink does not provide a service akin to an Underground
line, with trains almost crawling through the central part of the
route (something I hope that will be remedied under the Thameslink
2000 project aka the "Thameslink Programme").


Much of the above will change from December this year when the Southeastern
Sevenoaks service becomes a joint operation with FCC and runs through to at
least Kentish Town as part of Thameslink Key Output 0, which closes the bay
platforms at Blackfriars...

Paul

Mwmbwls wrote:

The 1974 London Rail Study
believed the cost benefit case to be weak and so Camberwell like
sleeping beauty nodded off until most recently in 2006

Tim O'Toole mentioned it in a Time Out interview last year:
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...nstion-on.html

Pure rumour says the plan involves the Hayes branch.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 20 Jan, 20:12, Mr Thant
wrote:
Pure rumour says the plan involves the Hayes branch.

It's more than a rumour, as confirmed by Bakerloo line GM Kevin Bootle
to Modern Railways in November 2007 (p87). He said that "extending
the line to Hayes remains a live proposition for the longer term".

THC

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, THC wrote:

On 20 Jan, 20:12, Mr Thant
wrote:

Pure rumour says the plan involves the Hayes branch.

It's more than a rumour, as confirmed by Bakerloo line GM Kevin Bootle
to Modern Railways in November 2007 (p87). He said that "extending the
line to Hayes remains a live proposition for the longer term".

Which is completely meaningless, since 'live proposition' means everything
from 'we're oiling the TBMs now' to 'a work experience student once had a
look at a map and thought it might be doable'. The only way it could stop
being a live proposition would be if a rift valley opened up in Peckham.

tom

--
History is about battles, great men, gory executions and wigs. That is
all. -- The Richelieu Association

On 20 Jan, 20:12, Mr Thant
wrote:
Mwmbwls wrote:
The 1974 London Rail Study
believed the cost benefit case to be weak and so Camberwell like
sleeping beauty nodded off until most recently in 2006

Tim O'Toole mentioned it in a Time Out interview last year:
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...line-extenstio...

Pure rumour says the plan involves the Hayes branch.

U



I'm not so sure that the travellers on the Hayes branch would really
want it - they already have a 4tph service, two of those being fast
from Ladywell to London Bridge (which is an advantage for those who
wish to get into town quicker, though a disadvantage for those who
want Lewisham either in its own right or for connections including the
DLR to the Docklands).

Would the Bakerloo service intermingle with other services? The
Bakerloo would presumably have to intermingle with freight trains on
the line from Peckham Rye to Lewisham, which could present safety and
reliability issues (though many of the freights do run late or at
night). Even if there was a new separated route constructed through
Lewisham for the Bakerloo to reach the Hayes branch, it would still
have to share tracks with other services from Peckham Rye (if that is
indeed where it surfaced) to the junction just past Nunhead.

I'm just not quire sure how it would all work in practice - and it
certainly seems like there'd be many potential pitfalls in taking the
Bakerloo all the way put to Hayes.

Don't get me wrong - I'm very much in favour of extending the
Bakerloo, I just wonder if this Hayes talk is merely people grasping
for a wider plan which would justify its extension. I think it'd be a
great success even if it was just extended to Camberwell, with an
intermediate station on the Walworth Road - and could even go further
south to East Dulwich (not just the station but into the heart of the
neighbourhood), or east to Peckham. The line's central/southern
section has the spare capacity, and has the unfulfilled potential.

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mizter T wrote:

On 20 Jan, 20:12, Mr Thant
wrote:
Mwmbwls wrote:

The 1974 London Rail Study
believed the cost benefit case to be weak and so Camberwell like
sleeping beauty nodded off until most recently in 2006

Tim O'Toole mentioned it in a Time Out interview last year:
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...line-extenstio...

Pure rumour says the plan involves the Hayes branch.

I'm not so sure that the travellers on the Hayes branch would really
want it - they already have a 4tph service, two of those being fast from
Ladywell to London Bridge (which is an advantage for those who wish to
get into town quicker, though a disadvantage for those who want Lewisham
either in its own right or for connections including the DLR to the
Docklands).

Indeed. Those wanting London Bridge or the City would have to change at
Lewisham. Or Elephant, after they've sat through some number of additional
stops. The change at Lewisham would have to be pretty painless for this to
work, and there would have to be enough capacity on that line for it.

Would the Bakerloo service intermingle with other services? The Bakerloo
would presumably have to intermingle with freight trains on the line
from Peckham Rye to Lewisham, which could present safety and reliability
issues (though many of the freights do run late or at night). Even if
there was a new separated route constructed through Lewisham for the
Bakerloo to reach the Hayes branch, it would still have to share tracks
with other services from Peckham Rye (if that is indeed where it
surfaced) to the junction just past Nunhead.

I had the idea it was to be a tunnel from Elephant and Castle all the way
to Lewisham, surfacing south of there, from where the Hayes branch is
separate from all other lines (one of the striking things about that
branch that makes it so attractive for tubulation). That would mean it was
an entirely segregated route, and so there were no worries about
intermingling, freight, safety, performance pollution, etc. Plus, it would
reduce conflicts and release capacity on the surface lines.

If you draw a straight line from Elephant to Lewisham, it goes pretty much
along the Old Kent Road; this is a very densely populated area that's very
poorly served by railways, so it would be a great route for a new tube
line, regardless of where it went past Lewisham. You run via stations at
Bricklayers Arms, Thomas a Becket aka Albany Road aka Southernwood Retail
Park aka Burgess Park, Canal Bridge aka Rotherhithe New Road aka Cantium
Retail Park, Queen's Road Peckham, New Cross Gate, Deptford Bridge,
Lewisham. Or something like that.

If it did surface at Peckham Rye, there may be space to four-track from
there to Lewisham: you have to take a house, a car-park, lots of unused
land, dig out some cuttings and build up some embankments, and widen some
bridges, but it is doable.

I'm just not quire sure how it would all work in practice - and it
certainly seems like there'd be many potential pitfalls in taking the
Bakerloo all the way put to Hayes.

Certainly true.

Don't get me wrong - I'm very much in favour of extending the Bakerloo,
I just wonder if this Hayes talk is merely people grasping for a wider
plan which would justify its extension. I think it'd be a great success
even if it was just extended to Camberwell, with an intermediate station
on the Walworth Road - and could even go further south to East Dulwich
(not just the station but into the heart of the neighbourhood), or east
to Peckham. The line's central/southern section has the spare capacity,
and has the unfulfilled potential.

Quite. I think the above route to Lewisham would be a huge boon to Peckham
residents, whether it went on to Hayes or not!

tom

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