lonelytraveller wrote:

Other losers are London Bridge bound passengers from Wandsworth Road
and Denmark Hill, who will lose a direct service to London Bridge.
They will be able to change at Peckham Rye (same platform interchange
for ELLX services, different platform for rerouted SLL to Bellingham
services), or travel to Canada Water on the ELLX for interchange with
the Jubilee line - though that really is the long way around!

I don't think its appropriate to believe that most people going to
London Bridge go there specifically, rather than just because its a
connecting point on a longer journey to the city, or via the tube. Of
course there will always be some people going to London Bridge itself,
much as there are some people who actually go to Peckham Rye for its
own sake, but for those travelling via the tube, isn't it more
efficient to use the ELLX, where they can change directly onto the
Jubilee at Canada Water, the district line at Whitechapel, or the
Central line at Shoreditch.


I think we covered this issue over London Bridge pretty recently! Of
course most people arriving at LB are likely to be going somewhere
other than the immediate environs of the station - though there are
several large offices on the south side of the river, including the
new "More London" development next to City Hall. And the City is
literally just across London Bridge itself - so depending upon where
people are heading in the City, London Bridge can be pretty
convenient. There is, and always has been, a large pedestrian traffic
across London Bridge at the rush hour - and one of the pavements is
extra wide to accommodate this (and I have to say I consider any able-
bodied person who travels from London Bridge to Bank by Tube to be
exceptionally lazy and rather stupid!). Plus Guy's hospital is near
London Bridge, and as I said in my original post there is a lot of
intra-hospital traffic between Guy's and King's in Camberwell (next to
Denmark Hill).

With regards to your other point about how people can interchange at
Canada Water - indeed they will be able to. It's a bit of a dog leg to
go to Canada Water in Rotherhithe rather than direct to London Bridge,
but the change to the Jubilee line there is very easy. I suspect
London Bridge bound pax might still find it easier to change at
Peckham Rye or Queens Road Peckham, though of course there will only
be 6tph (I think) from these stations to London Bridge so the turn up
and go aspect of the Jubilee at Canada Water will also be a
considerable attraction - though it does mean two extra stations on a
journey to LB.

The idea of getting into the City via the ELLX and then a change onto
the District at Whitechapel seems pretty absurd to me - one would be
far better off just getting to London Bridge. Perhaps a change at
Whitechapel for the H&C line might be a decent way to get to the
Barbican edge of the City. Using the ELLX to get to Shoreditch High
Street for access by foot to the eastern edge of the City is something
I've advocated beforehand, and I'm sure it'll happen. I'm fascinated
to know where you've got the idea that the Central line is going to
stop at Shoreditch from - coz it ain't! The best interchange between
the ELLX and the Central line will involve a walk down the road from
Shoreditch High Street station to Liverpool Street station for the
Tube.



I imagine the number of Wandsworth Road to LB pax isn't great.

I imagine that Wandsworth Road --(walk)-- Battersea whatever/Vauxhall
--(NR)-- Waterloo --(Jubilee)-- London Bridge is a lot faster and
more frequent than going via the South London Lines


With a 20 minute journey time from Wandsworth Road to LB I think it'd
be hard to beat the South London Line service once you're on it,
though it is only every half-hour.

To respond to your alternate route above - the "Battersea whatever"
would be Queenstown Road Battersea! That would be an alternative,
though getting to Queenstown Road station from points on Wandsworth
Road isn't made at all easy by the fact there is a great big
collection of railway yards at Stewart's Lane - take a look at at this
map and you'll see that...
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=529250&y=176750

The only direct way is up Silverthorne Road (bottom left side), or
Stewards Road then Battersea Park Road then Queenstown Road.

Taking a bus up Wandsworth Road to Vauxhall (the 77 or 87 are frequent
routes) then getting on the train from there might be a better bet -
though once one was onboard a 77 bus one might as well take it all the
way to Waterloo (the roads aren't likely to be that jammed up) then
change for the Jubilee.


Of course they can still get the first train and change at Peckham
Rye, or indeed the first train to Clapham High Street and change for
the Northern line.

Or change at Canada Water and get the Jubilee line.


Just to be clear to other readers, the above part of my post referred
had moved on to looking at Denmark Hill to LB journeys. As I discuss
above a Denmark Hill to LB journey could involve either a change at
Peckham Rye/Queens Road Peckham or Canada Water, they both have their
advantages and disadvantages. Those who require onward travel from
London Bridge would be likely to prefer the overground route, as they
would end up on the platforms of London Bridge mainline station as
opposed to the Jubilee line platforms, which are a bit of a trek from
the mainline station through the tunnels and undercroft.


Most opposition to changes like these seems to be idiological. Its
more "better transport links = gentrification = enemies of the working
class" than "change = worse transport".


I take your broad point, but I don't think that's really got much to
do with this specific case.

With regards to the withdrawal of direct Denmark Hill - LB trains, a
lot of it is down to a basic ignorance of the proposals. When the
Cross-London Route Utilisation Strategy (RUS) was being consulted on
in late '05 / early '06 there was the beginnings of a local grassroots
campaign to 'Save the South London Line'. I did read through it at the
time and it was pretty cavalier in the way it considered the fate of
the SLL - it just came across as an awkward line that the planners
didn't quite know how to deal with. However the final RUS document
merely recommended that the issue of the SLL be revisited in the South
London RUS, not least because it was perhaps better dealt with in the
context of other south London rail developments.

Since the publication of the draft South London RUS there have again
been various noises, albeit rather late in the day and somewhat
misinformed. Someone I know in the area has had emails and heard
things from local community activists along the lines of "South London
Line to be axed" and "Denmark Hill station to be closed"!

The truth of course is somewhat more complex. I read through the South
London RUS and it's a heavy going document - it's very thorough but
there are numerous ways that the various different proposals interplay
with each other.

Mixed with this general confusion is the fact that long established
direct services from Denmark Hill to LB will be withdrawn (and the
fact that this is to benefit Thameslink '2000' is neither here nor
there - indeed the argument might be "why should those longer distance
commuters benefit and us short distance commuters suffer?) . People
like direct trains, and there is an affluent part of the surrounding
neighbourhood some of whom make use of these trains to get to work in
the City, plus there are all the staff and patients of the nearby
King's College hospital. Hence my prediction that this will cause a
rumpus.

I'd suggest that this could be mitigated somewhat by ensuring that
accurate information about the 'proposed' changes is circulated widely
(I say 'proposed' in inverted commas because the removal of SLL
services to/from London Bridge has pretty much been decided, it would
seem). The benefits to Denmark Hill passengers of the arrival of the
ELLX are numerous, and need to be considered alongside the withdrawal
of direct trains to LB.