On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:41:12 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

The standard Mystery Shopping of London Underground stations does not
specifically measure the effectiveness of Ticket Offices.
It seems there is another project which measures things like queuing.

On what do you base the above comment re MSS and ticket offices?

I'm asking because I think it quite clearly does but I'd like to
understand what you mean by ticket office "effectiveness".
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

John B wrote:


If you've never used any kind of machine in your life, perhaps:
however, if you've successfully managed to buy a Mars bar or a condom
from a vending machine, the Tube machines are hardly a complex
development on that.

I take it that you've never actually tried to use a modern ticket
machine then. You're lucky. Trust me, they're a _lot_ more complex
than a chocolate vending machine. At least the NR ones at my local
station are. I assume the TfL ones are just as bad.

You see, chocolate machines usually just list half-a-dozen or so
different types of chocolate bars, clearly marked, each one with its own
button. You press the button to choose the type of bar you want. Nice
and simple.

Sadly, they've phased out the ticket vending machines that have
different buttons for each destination, and replaced them with those
awful new ones with touch screens. Not that it's obvious that they're
touch screens. The very first time you use one, you're looking you
waste a lot of time looking for some mouse-style thing to control it!
Once you've finally figured out what's going on, then the nightmare can
really begin.

The ticket you want is _never_ on the quick list on the first screen.
You select the "More destinations" button icon. It's usually not on the
second screen either. You select "Station finder A-Z". A keyboard pops
up on screen, but it's the wrong size, shape and angle for touch
typists. Pecking at each letter in turn, you type out the name of your
destination.

As you type, the list of stations above it gets whittled down until
there's only one left matching what you typed. You then have to select
that one. Why!?! If it's the only one matching, it's obviously the
only one you could want. Why do they make you do extra work by
selecting it? It should just select itself automatically.

Anyway, once that's done, you're presented with a list of ticket types
and routes, that can be _very_ confusing if you don't know exactly what
you want. For example, on Sundays it still offers a ticket from Gipsy
Hill to Belvedere, route Not London, despite the fact that there doesn't
seem to be any obvious way of doing that journey with the Sunday
services! The machine makes no attempt to suggest which ticket is
likely to be best or most appropriate for your journey, the way a human
clerk should.

Better still, shoot all the machines and replace them with more human
clerks. That would be a big improvement.

If by "improvement" you mean "extremely expensive way of making things
slower and more complex for regular travellers", then you're
absolutely right.

It's _much_ quicker and less complex to ust say "Return, Belvedere,
please," than all that messing about with the touch screens.

As you type, the list of stations above it gets whittled down until
there's only one left matching what you typed. You then have to select
that one. Why!?! If it's the only one matching, it's obviously the
only one you could want. Why do they make you do extra work by
selecting it?

To confirm that you typed (and spelled) the name correctly.

Oh, you said "!?!"? Okay:

To confirm that you typed (and spelled) the name correctly!!!
--
Mark Brader | "Canadians do not exclaim. The exclamation point is
Toronto | removed from our word-processing programs at the border
| and sold back to the Americans for scrap." --Matthew Hart

Actually, I'd say the TfL machines are quite a bit more friendly than
the National Rail ones even. Obviously they don't deal with various
destinations but simple zones.

You see, chocolate machines usually just list half-a-dozen or so
different types of chocolate bars, clearly marked, each one with its own
button. *You press the button to choose the type of bar you want. *Nice
and simple.

Often there are just number buttons and no button per item.

Sadly, they've phased out the ticket vending machines that have
different buttons for each destination, and replaced them with those
awful new ones with touch screens. *Not that it's obvious that they're
touch screens. *The very first time you use one, you're looking you
waste a lot of time looking for some mouse-style thing to control it!
Once you've finally figured out what's going on, then the nightmare can
really begin.

Ehm, seeing as there is no mouse or separate keyboard, what other
option could be there? Surely it can't take that long to figure this
out.

The ticket you want is _never_ on the quick list on the first screen.

It very often is. They do put the most popular destinations and
travelcards on there after all.

You select the "More destinations" button icon. *It's usually not on the
second screen either. *You select "Station finder A-Z". *A keyboard pops
up on screen, but it's the wrong size, shape and angle for touch
typists. *Pecking at each letter in turn, you type out the name of your
destination.

No touch screen screens are made for touch typing. It's really not
that hard to type the letters one by one.

As you type, the list of stations above it gets whittled down until
there's only one left matching what you typed.

I guess you keep typing for too long and waste a lot of time like
that, then. Once it's narrowed down enough and you can see your
destination within the results, just select it. Don't keep typing.
*You then have to select
that one. *Why!?! If it's the only one matching, it's obviously the
only one you could want. Why do they make you do extra work by

Because you might have made a mistake and this way you can check
whether it's the right one. Or quickly use backspace and correct it.

Anyway, once that's done, you're presented with a list of ticket types
and routes, that can be _very_ confusing if you don't know exactly what
you want. *For example, on Sundays it still offers a ticket from Gipsy
Hill to Belvedere, route Not London, despite the fact that there doesn't
seem to be any obvious way of doing that journey with the Sunday
services!

Routing can be very confusing and a big problem, I agree with you
about that. Anyway, this isn't a problem on LU machines due to the
zones.

The machine makes no attempt to suggest which ticket is
likely to be best or most appropriate for your journey, the way a human
clerk should.

Well, if you look at the timetables before you leave or at the
station, you'd easily find out.

Better still, shoot all the machines and replace them with more human
clerks. That would be a big improvement.

An incredibly costly one leading to prices to rise.

It's _much_ quicker and less complex to ust say "Return, Belvedere,
please," than all that messing about with the touch screens.

Except that you'd have to wait in a queue for a long time, and you're
ignoring all the routing stuff that you just mentioned, which would
also be a problem if you were talking to a clerk. they don't know
every single route throughout the UK either.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:41:12 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

It ought not to be necessary to carry the fares leaflet. "Please, can
you check the fares leaflet" might be instructive.

Though it can cause resentment. Railway staff don't like being asked
(politely) to refer to the National Fares Manual, especially not when
it proves them wrong.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:41:09 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Well it would have helped if "Fare's Fair" [sic] had had the same benefits
across London rather than just putting up the rates for some.

Had the outcome of it included a co-ordinated timetable/route system,
German-style, and fully unified tariff, something which London still
lacks, it would have benefitted everyone.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 9 Jan, 20:31, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Not that it's obvious that they're
touch screens. The very first time you use one, you're looking you
waste a lot of time looking for some mouse-style thing to control it!
Once you've finally figured out what's going on, then the nightmare can
really begin.

That's why they all say "touch here to start" or whatever.

The ticket you want is _never_ on the quick list on the first screen.
You select the "More destinations" button icon. It's usually not on the
second screen either.

And if it'd been a chocolate machine, that would have been your lot.

As you type, the list of stations above it gets whittled down until
there's only one left matching what you typed. You then have to select
that one. Why!?! If it's the only one matching, it's obviously the
only one you could want. Why do they make you do extra work by
selecting it? It should just select itself automatically.

No it shouldn't. Having the current interface disappear from
underneath the user without an explicit action from then is amongst
the worst user interface mistakes.

It's _much_ quicker and less complex to ust say "Return, Belvedere,
please," than all that messing about with the touch screens.

At my local station, all that'll get you is "WHAT?" (and that's after
you've waited for them to get off the phone, put down the paper, etc).
Once I've got across what it is I'm asking for, I'm inevitably asked
some very odd question that can't possibly effect what ticket I need.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:03:44 -0800 (PST), brixtonite
wrote:

When I was at Green Park with a queue building up behind me, there was
in fact a supervisor hanging around the machines helping people work
them.

Which makes a lot of sense, IMO. If the ticket machines can issue and
give change[1] for 99% of tickets, it is most efficient to provide
more machines and fewer windows and to have staff moving around the
ticket hall assisting the few people who actually need assistance.

While this might not work for the national rail network (as the fares
structure is far too complex, though the far simpler Dutch system
managed it) it shouldn't be beyond the wit of TfL for all possible
Tube ticketing products including issuing[2] and refunding Oyster
cards to be available from a machine.

[1] The new narrow machines that don't give change are a damned stupid
idea.

[2] Yes, I know there are those "insert 3 quid" machines, but those
are just a quick solution. The long-term solution really must be a
one-stop machine that can do the lot.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:31:14 -0000, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Sadly, they've phased out the ticket vending machines that have
different buttons for each destination,

You mean the ones that only issued a limited number of destinations?

and replaced them with those
awful new ones with touch screens.

Which offer all walk-on ticket types to all destinations, rather more
useful?

Not that it's obvious that they're
touch screens. The very first time you use one, you're looking you
waste a lot of time looking for some mouse-style thing to control it!

The ex-Silverlink ones say "Please touch the screen to begin" on the
front screen. The only counter-intuitive bit is the credit card PIN
pad where you have to move away from it, but this is understandable
for security reasons.

As you type, the list of stations above it gets whittled down until
there's only one left matching what you typed. You then have to select
that one. Why!?! If it's the only one matching, it's obviously the
only one you could want. Why do they make you do extra work by
selecting it? It should just select itself automatically.

It shouldn't, for the main reason that it's very poor user-interface
design to carry out a screen change or refresh that wasn't initiated
by the user, as that kind of thing causes confusion, especially if it
was whittled down to one by typing something wrong!

It's _much_ quicker and less complex to ust say "Return, Belvedere,
please," than all that messing about with the touch screens.

It takes me approximately 5-10 seconds to select the ticket I want, if
I know what it is (normally a Saver Return, routed Any Permitted, to
the given destination), on the Scheidt and Bachmann machines. Payment
takes a short while longer, as does printing, but then it would at a
manual window as well.

The Deutsche Bahn machines, while very comprehensive, are *far* slower
and *far* less intuitive.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

If you've never used any kind of machine in your life, perhaps:
however, if you've successfully managed to buy a Mars bar or a condom
from a vending machine, the Tube machines are hardly a complex
development on that.

I take it that you've never actually tried to use a modern ticket
machine then. You're lucky. Trust me, they're a _lot_ more complex
than a chocolate vending machine. At least the NR ones at my local
station are. I assume the TfL ones are just as bad.

You see, chocolate machines usually just list half-a-dozen or so
different types of chocolate bars, clearly marked, each one with its own
button. You press the button to choose the type of bar you want. Nice
and simple.

I much prefer the new machines over the old Quickfare ones, where if you
were not lucky enough to be going somewhere with a button, you *had* to
queue up at the ticket office. And to say the old Quickfare machines were
simple is a little, erm, simplistic. Once you know the instructions its
simple, but for anyone not familiar with basic railway tickets, to be
confronted with a HUGE panel of a hundred buttons and various flashing
lights looking like the original USS Enterprise was incredibly overwhelming.

Sadly, they've phased out the ticket vending machines that have
different buttons for each destination, and replaced them with those
awful new ones with touch screens. Not that it's obvious that they're
touch screens. The very first time you use one, you're looking you
waste a lot of time looking for some mouse-style thing to control it!
Once you've finally figured out what's going on, then the nightmare can
really begin.

The opening screen that says "Touch The Screen To Start" escaped your
notice..?

The ticket you want is _never_ on the quick list on the first screen.
You select the "More destinations" button icon. It's usually not on the
second screen either. You select "Station finder A-Z". A keyboard pops
up on screen, but it's the wrong size, shape and angle for touch
typists. Pecking at each letter in turn, you type out the name of your
destination.

To actually criticise the machine for not have the same dimensions as a
touch-type keyboard is ridiculous! You are just typing in a station name,
not a 400 page report!

As you type, the list of stations above it gets whittled down until
there's only one left matching what you typed. You then have to select
that one. Why!?! If it's the only one matching, it's obviously the
only one you could want. Why do they make you do extra work by
selecting it? It should just select itself automatically.

I actually think that would be more confusing if the keyboard dissapeard
halfway though my typing the name in, and selecting the station name even if
it is the only one left is useful for confirmatory purposes.

Anyway, once that's done, you're presented with a list of ticket types
and routes, that can be _very_ confusing if you don't know exactly what
you want. For example, on Sundays it still offers a ticket from Gipsy
Hill to Belvedere, route Not London, despite the fact that there doesn't
seem to be any obvious way of doing that journey with the Sunday
services! The machine makes no attempt to suggest which ticket is
likely to be best or most appropriate for your journey, the way a human
clerk should.

Yes - this is the single biggest drawback of the machines, though it should
be noted that the Quickfares wouldn't have been more helpful either. My
personal bugbear is that ticket selections have an INFO screen that should
be used to describe the various routes and restrictions that each ticket
has... but if you press it, most TOC's have just entered "See Notices". Only
a few TOC's actually fill these out fo any use.

It's _much_ quicker and less complex to ust say "Return, Belvedere,
please," than all that messing about with the touch screens.

Yes, but you have to wait behind the tens of people who want to book
reservations, find out times, renew season tickets, purchase railcards etc
etc etc before you get to do that. A machine is much quicker, though I
always find out what ticket is best via The Train Line or other website and
then go to the machine knowing what ticket I need, and how much it is going
to cost.

Now, if only they could allow the machines to accept NR Rail Vouchers!

Best Wishes,
LEWIS