Peter Smyth wrote:

So which of the 5 routes from Dartford to London would you use to calculate
the fare?

Surely that depends on the route the passenger wishes to take?

Table 200 of the NRT gives the following mileages for London to Dartford:

London Charing Cross - Blackheath - Charlton - Dartford is given as
18.75 miles.

London Cannon Street - Greenwich - Woolwich Arsenal - Dartford is given
as 16.25 miles.

London Charing Cross - Blackheath - Bexleyheath - Dartford is given as
17 miles.

London Charing Cross - Lewisham - Hither Green - Sidcup - Dartford is
given as 17.25 miles.

London Victoria - Peckham Rye - Lewisham - Bexleyheath - Dartford is
given as 18.5 miles.

This gives an average of 17.55 miles.

Cheers,

Barry

On Jan 1, 1:19*am, MIG wrote:
On Dec 31 2007, 11:22*pm, DaveP wrote:





Zones are unfair because most people only use unlimited travel within
the central part of the system and not at the extremes.
Not true. I have a 456 travelcard and I use it all over these zones.

I knew someone would say that ... I did say "most people" You can have a
system that's fair on you, now can the rest of us have one that's fair on
us too?

I'm sure Oyster could as easily cope with point to point mileage based
Ok then what is the point to point distance for Dartford to London

The rail companies have distance figures and the fares could be worked out
from this data (like they were at one time) - you get the fare online or at
the station, pretty much like anything else you'd buy.

managed to save £400 a year by buying a season ticket for zones 1-4
Well done, but why 1-4, and not 1-2?

Because for some odd reason it was cheaper to do it 1-4 than 1-2.

D

No doubt it varies, but in the past when combining a one-day
travelcard and a day return from boundary to country location*, I seem
to remember that it worked out cheapest to maximise the travelcard
part.

It seems odd that adding zones to the travelcard wouldn't cost as much
as including a London section on the day return, but at least
sometimes it apparently wouldn't.

*The travelcard being necessary anyway to get to the start of the
journey. *I think it was something like south London to Southend via
Limehouse.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just to follow this up, now the journey planner is working again, zone
1 - 2 one-day travelcard is £5.30, and cheap day return Limehouse to
Southend is £11, total £16.30.

Zone 1 - 6 one-day travelcard is £7, and cheap day return Upminster to
Southend is £9.40, total £16.40. So it looks like, if it ever did, my
calculation doesn't work with the current fares. Not much difference
though. 10p more for free travel in zones 3 - 6.

On 30 Dec 2007, 10:30, wrote:
Any more suggestions as to where the zonal boundaries should be?

Dartford should be in zone 6 for practical reasons - three different
train routes finish there- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Maybe now A/B/C/D have been renumbered & used elsewhere than the Met
line, there are plans to extend thezonal system outwards to include
interchanges like Dartford. Won't get into zone 6 though - it would
make Dartford a lot cheaper to travel from....but surely 7, 8 or 9
would besuitable?

On 30 Dec 2007, 12:33, Jon wrote:
- the outer boundary of Z6 follows the Greater London boundary

I thought Z5 was the old GLC boundary?

The rail companies have distance figures and the fares could be

So which of the 5 routes from Dartford to London would you use to
calculate the fare?

The average would be the best way. Whatever it is, the variation is going
to be quite small, compared to the large variation the zones have
introduced.

Weekends, Cockfosters to Heathrow is £2 for a 49km journey. Kings X is also
£2 but you only get 16km. Should KX not be 65p? Or should Heathrow be £6?

Regards,
Dave

Well done, but why 1-4, and not 1-2?
Because for some odd reason it was cheaper to do it 1-4 than 1-2.
I seem to remember that it worked out cheapest to maximise the travelcard
part.

I used to work out which combination was cheapest and it doesn't work out
for all stations and/or rail companies, and often the changeover point was
different each year.

This year cheapest is to Z4 and saves £332 from Potters Bar. If you're in
Welham Green it saves £472. All combinations are cheaper than the off the
shelf ticket (although there is the caveat that the train must stop where
the ticket changes over - less of a problem from Welham Green where the
train is all stops anyhow).

I'd love to be able to just walk into the booking office and buy the most
suitable ticket for my needs without having to go through this nonsense.

Why can't they just sell a ticket valid "POTTERS BAR & R1234"?

D

Just to follow this up, now the journey planner is working again, zone
1 - 2 one-day travelcard is £5.30, and cheap day return Limehouse to
Southend is £11, total £16.30.

Zone 1 - 6 one-day travelcard is £7, and cheap day return Upminster to
Southend is £9.40, total £16.40. So it looks like, if it ever did, my
calculation doesn't work with the current fares. Not much difference
though. 10p more for free travel in zones 3 - 6.

I expect one year when working this out FCC will rise point to point fares
to make the fares the same as buying the normal ticket. I expect this will
happen when seasons go zonal in 2010, though I'm not sure what they will do
when you're outside the zones to start with?

Hopefully by then though they will have rolled out some sort of smart card
scheme which will probably be best value all round... (he says)

Cheers,
Dave

"DaveP" wrote in message
54...
Well done, but why 1-4, and not 1-2?
Because for some odd reason it was cheaper to do it 1-4 than 1-2.
I seem to remember that it worked out cheapest to maximise the travelcard
part.

I used to work out which combination was cheapest and it doesn't work out
for all stations and/or rail companies, and often the changeover point was
different each year.

This year cheapest is to Z4 and saves £332 from Potters Bar. If you're in
Welham Green it saves £472. All combinations are cheaper than the off the
shelf ticket (although there is the caveat that the train must stop where
the ticket changes over - less of a problem from Welham Green where the
train is all stops anyhow).

Sure? Doesn't the ticket being a season negate the requirement for an actual
stop at the changeover point?

Paul

On 1 Jan, 12:56, DaveP wrote:
(although there is the caveat that the train must stop where
the ticket changes over - less of a problem from Welham Green where the
train is all stops anyhow).

Not for season tickets. There's a specific exception in the conditions
of carriage.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Paul Scott wrote:

Sure? Doesn't the ticket being a season negate the requirement for an actual
stop at the changeover point?

Condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage applies:

-----Start of quoted text-----

*19. Using a combination of tickets*

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit
their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one
ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

(rest snipped)

-----End of quoted text-----

For Condition 19(a) to apply, you'd need a Potters Bar - R56 Travelcard
and a Zones to 4 Travelcard.

Condition 19(c) doesn't apply as a Travelcard is *NOT* a Season Ticket
or Travel Pass issued on behalf of a PTE or Local Authority.

Retail Manual Part 1 gives the following examples:

Example 1: A customer has two Season Tickets: One between Northampton
and Bletchley; and the other between Bletchley and Watford Junction.
They may only travel from Northampton to Watford Junction on trains that
call at Bletchley.

Example 2: A customer holding a Northampton to Berkhamsted Season Ticket
and a Berkhamsted to London R1256 (=AII Zones) Travelcard Season Ticket,
may only travel between Northampton and "London R1256" on trains which
stop at Berkhamsted.

Example 3: The holder of an Annual Gold Card Season ticket between
Manningtree and Witham wishes to travel from Manningtree to London
Liverpool Street. A ticket from Witham to London Terminals is required
to make this journey. This may be purchased with the appropriate Annual
Gold Card discount if applicable at the time of travel and is valid on
any services operated by "one". The chosen train need not call at Witham.

Example 4: The holder of a 7 Day Freedom of North East Rover ticket
wishes to travel from Kings Cross to York. A ticket from London
Terminals to Retford is required to make this journey. The chosen train
does not need to call at Retford.

Example 5: A customer with a three months Travelcard Season Ticket
between Sittingbourne and "London R56" ("Out Boundary" to Zones 5 + 6)
wishes to travel for one week only to Beckenham Junction, in Zone 4. To
do so, they must purchase a 7-Day Travelcard Season Ticket for Zone 4
and use both tickets for the through journey. It will not be necessary
to change trains if a through service is available.

Example 6: A customer with a three months Travelcard Season Ticket
between Brighton and "London R56" wants to travel for one day only to
Romford, in Zone 6, on the opposite side of London. To do so, he must
purchase appropriate tickets to enable him to cross Zones 4, 3, 2 and 1
into London and then zones 1-4 between London and Romford. Accordingly,
a Peak or Off-Peak Day Travelcard for Zones R1234 to be used in
conjunction with the Travelcard Season Ticket would need to be purchased
before travel commenced.

HTH,

Barry

Chris wrote:
On 30 Dec 2007, 10:30, wrote:
Any more suggestions as to where the zonal boundaries should be?
Dartford should be in zone 6 for practical reasons - three
different train routes finish there- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Maybe now A/B/C/D have been renumbered & used elsewhere than the Met
line, there are plans to extend thezonal system outwards to include
interchanges like Dartford. Won't get into zone 6 though - it would
make Dartford a lot cheaper to travel from....but surely 7, 8 or 9
would besuitable?

Just to muddy the waters a little, "Freedom Pass" holders *CAN* travel
out to Dartford on their pass, so it'd make sense if the Zone 6 boundary
were extended accordingly, though I suspect that would involve Kent
County Council making a contribution to the Travelcard "pot".

Cheers,

Barry