On 12 Jan, 23:38, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article ,







(Recliner) wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

On Jan 11, 6:26 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article

Shame! In fact the first unpainted train entered service in 1952.
The
original trial was of just one R49 car. I don't think that was as
early as 1949 either. The R stock is another case of the years in
the stock codes representing more aspiration than fact. The
programme to switch all R stock trains to silver (mostly painted)
wasn't completed until 1965.

I always assumed that the years in the stock codes were based on
orders rather than introduction. *Like the D78 stock first being
introduced in 1980.

Actually, I think the date numbers represent the earliest envisaged
date of introduction; the actual entry into service is usually a
year or two later. The orders would have been placed years earlier
(it takes much more than two years from order to introduction). Of
course, there are some anomalies, like the 1995 and 1996 stocks,
which actually entered service in the opposite order, or mark 2
batches.

Maybe the dates are now more realistic -- after all, the 2009 stock
started testing on the Victoria line in 2007. But I'm not sure when
it will enter pax service.

Tube stock used to be quite good at entering service in the right year,
e.g. 1959, 1960, 1962 and 1967.

A recent new idea is to pretend that the additional Jubilee stock is also
1996, including the otherwise rather different treadover plates from the
originals.


All the 1967 stock had 1967 in the plates, including the second batch
that must have entered service later, but there was no mark 2
convention.

C77 stock did have 1977 in the plates, but I don't think it entered
service till about 1979.

A60 stock has 1961 in the plates. Was this down to a different
manufacturer correcting the year to match the introduction/delivery
date?

"MIG" wrote in message

On 12 Jan, 23:38, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article ,

(Recliner) wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message



I always assumed that the years in the stock codes were based on
orders rather than introduction. Like the D78 stock first being
introduced in 1980.

Actually, I think the date numbers represent the earliest envisaged
date of introduction; the actual entry into service is usually a
year or two later. The orders would have been placed years earlier
(it takes much more than two years from order to introduction). Of
course, there are some anomalies, like the 1995 and 1996 stocks,
which actually entered service in the opposite order, or mark 2
batches.

Maybe the dates are now more realistic -- after all, the 2009 stock
started testing on the Victoria line in 2007. But I'm not sure when
it will enter pax service.

Tube stock used to be quite good at entering service in the right
year, e.g. 1959, 1960, 1962 and 1967.

A recent new idea is to pretend that the additional Jubilee stock is
also 1996, including the otherwise rather different treadover plates
from the originals.


All the 1967 stock had 1967 in the plates, including the second batch
that must have entered service later, but there was no mark 2
convention.

I meant that the 1967 stock didn't begin to enter service until 1968


C77 stock did have 1977 in the plates, but I don't think it entered
service till about 1979.

I meant that C77 stock is, effectiveless, C68 mk 2 stock, but was given
a new name, unlike the 1972 and 1995 stocks, where the extra vehicles
were given the original year numbers.

On 13 Jan, 12:54, Colin McKenzie wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article
,
() wrote:
The last unrefurbished D Stock train is scheduled to operate on the
District Line on 21st February 2007. This will bring to an end the era
of unpainted aluminium UndergrounD trains which first began in 1949
(and also on the District Line with the R49 Stock).

Shame! In fact the first unpainted train entered service in 1952. The
original trial was of just one R49 car. I don't think that was as early
as 1949 either. The R stock is another case of the years in the stock
codes representing more aspiration than fact. The programme to switch all
R stock trains to silver (mostly painted) wasn't completed until 1965.

But that wasn't the end of red trains on the District. I had to check
my memory that the Edgware Road to Putney Bridge trains were always
red. These were a different sort of stock (O/P) - but apart from the
colour they looked almost identical from the outside. They seem to
have stayed red until withdrawn when the C77 stock came in (around
1979-80, it appears).


There was red stock on the District till the early 1980s when it was
replaced by the D78 stock (D78 started being introduced in 1980).

The main route of the District was run by a mixture of R stock
(silver) and CO/CP stock (red).

The Edgware Road line was run purely by CO/CP stock (red) but there
was no separation of fleets, ie CO/CP stock that ran to Edgware Road
would also find itself at Upminster etc.

The difference was that R stock was always formed into seven-coach
trains by then, while the CO/CP stock could be formed into seven or
six-coach trains. On the Edgware Road line there was only room for
six coaches, so it was always CO/CP stock.

On the main route, you did sometimes see a six-coach train of CO/CP
stock*, but they were usually seven.

C77 stock allowed the CO/CP stock to start being withdrawn, but some
of it was still needed for the main part of the line, which couldn't
be covered by the R stock alone.

It was first to go when the D78 stock came in.


*and a few on the Circle on Sundays

On 13 Jan, 13:35, "Recliner" wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message







On 12 Jan, 23:38, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article ,

(Recliner) wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message


I always assumed that the years in the stock codes were based on
orders rather than introduction. Like the D78 stock first being
introduced in 1980.

Actually, I think the date numbers represent the earliest envisaged
date of introduction; the actual entry into service is usually a
year or two later. The orders would have been placed years earlier
(it takes much more than two years from order to introduction). Of
course, there are some anomalies, like the 1995 and 1996 stocks,
which actually entered service in the opposite order, or mark 2
batches.

Maybe the dates are now more realistic -- after all, the 2009 stock
started testing on the Victoria line in 2007. But I'm not sure when
it will enter pax service.

Tube stock used to be quite good at entering service in the right
year, e.g. 1959, 1960, 1962 and 1967.

A recent new idea is to pretend that the additional Jubilee stock is
also 1996, including the otherwise rather different treadover plates
from the originals.

All the 1967 stock had 1967 in the plates, including the second batch
that must have entered service later, but there was no mark 2
convention.

I meant that the 1967 stock didn't begin to enter service until 1968



C77 stock did have 1977 in the plates, but I don't think it entered
service till about 1979.

I meant that C77 stock is, effectiveless, C68 mk 2 stock, but was given
a new name, unlike the 1972 and 1995 stocks, where the extra vehicles
were given the original year numbers

There seem to be three conventions

1) designate the second batch to be the same as the first (1967, 1995
coaches)

2) designate the second batch to be a mark 2 (1972 [really 1967 mark 3
and 4?])

3) designate the second batch to be a different class (1959/62, A60/
A62, C69/C77)

No consistency really

Recliner wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

On 12 Jan, 23:38, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

Tube stock used to be quite good at entering service in the right
year, e.g. 1959, 1960, 1962 and 1967.

A recent new idea is to pretend that the additional Jubilee stock
is also 1996, including the otherwise rather different treadover
plates from the originals.


All the 1967 stock had 1967 in the plates, including the second
batch that must have entered service later, but there was no mark 2
convention.

I meant that the 1967 stock didn't begin to enter service until 1968

C77 stock did have 1977 in the plates, but I don't think it entered
service till about 1979.

I meant that C77 stock is, effectiveless, C68 mk 2 stock, but was
given a new name, unlike the 1972 and 1995 stocks, where the extra
vehicles were given the original year numbers.

C77 was slightly different to C69 (NB: not 68), with GEC motors and
power supplies instead of EE-AEI and some other minor internal and
external changes. After refurbishment in 1991-94, there are no longer
any visible differences.

Incidentally, in addition to various independent sites with LU rolling
stock details such as TubePrune
(http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Rolling%20Stock.htm)
and SquareWheels (http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/rly/stock/), the TfL
site has a set of detailed rolling stock information sheets at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...nd_Edition.pdf
(6MB 23-page PDF file, updated March 2007).

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On 13 Jan, 15:43, "Richard J." wrote:
Recliner wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

On 12 Jan, 23:38, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

Tube stock used to be quite good at entering service in the right
year, e.g. 1959, 1960, 1962 and 1967.

A recent new idea is to pretend that the additional Jubilee stock
is also 1996, including the otherwise rather different treadover
plates from the originals.

All the 1967 stock had 1967 in the plates, including the second
batch that must have entered service later, but there was no mark 2
convention.

I meant that the 1967 stock didn't begin to enter service until 1968

C77 stock did have 1977 in the plates, but I don't think it entered
service till about 1979.

I meant that C77 stock is, effectiveless, C68 mk 2 stock, but was
given a new name, unlike the 1972 and 1995 stocks, where the extra
vehicles were given the original year numbers.

C77 was slightly different to C69 (NB: not 68), with GEC motors and
power supplies instead of EE-AEI and some other minor internal and
external changes. *After refurbishment in 1991-94, there are no longer
any visible differences.

The visible differences I can remember were, externally C77 had silver
roofs instead of black and, internally, C77 had a higher black rubber
section on the partition beside the doors, with an aluminium strip
dividing it from the pale blue; the C69 had a lower black section and
no dividing strip.

Audibly, the C77 doors didn't make the popping noise just before they
closed that the C69 doors did.

Was there a difference between EE and GEC equipment, or was it just a
change of name?

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On 13 Jan, 13:35, "Recliner" wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message


On 12 Jan, 23:38, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message




I always assumed that the years in the stock codes were based on
orders rather than introduction. Like the D78 stock first being
introduced in 1980.

Actually, I think the date numbers represent the earliest
envisaged date of introduction; the actual entry into service is
usually a year or two later. The orders would have been placed
years earlier (it takes much more than two years from order to
introduction). Of course, there are some anomalies, like the
1995 and 1996 stocks, which actually entered service in the
opposite order, or mark 2 batches.

Maybe the dates are now more realistic -- after all, the 2009
stock started testing on the Victoria line in 2007. But I'm not
sure when it will enter pax service.

Tube stock used to be quite good at entering service in the right
year, e.g. 1959, 1960, 1962 and 1967.

A recent new idea is to pretend that the additional Jubilee
stock is also 1996, including the otherwise rather different
treadover plates from the originals.

All the 1967 stock had 1967 in the plates, including the second
batch that must have entered service later, but there was no mark 2
convention.

I meant that the 1967 stock didn't begin to enter service until 1968

Yes. I thought the first section of the Victoria Line opened in 1967 but
I could be wrong.

C77 stock did have 1977 in the plates, but I don't think it entered
service till about 1979.

I meant that C77 stock is, effectiveless, C68 mk 2 stock, but was
given a new name, unlike the 1972 and 1995 stocks, where the extra
vehicles were given the original year numbers

There seem to be three conventions

1) designate the second batch to be the same as the first (1967,
1995 coaches)

2) designate the second batch to be a mark 2 (1972 [really 1967
mark 3 and 4?])

3) designate the second batch to be a different class (1959/62, A60/
A62, C69/C77)

No consistency really

It presumably depends on the significance of developments between orders.
At one extreme, the second 1967 batch was just the extra cars for the
Brixton extension, a follow-on from the first batch in all respects,
while the 1962TS had a number of technical developments from the 1959TS.
Probably the greatest was the switch to Motor-Alternators.

Given the changes at refurbishment I wouldn't be surprised if the C77
stock didn't have quite a few changes under the skin from the C69 (note,
not 68).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

There was red stock on the District till the early 1980s when it was
replaced by the D78 stock (D78 started being introduced in 1980).

The main route of the District was run by a mixture of R stock
(silver) and CO/CP stock (red).

The Edgware Road line was run purely by CO/CP stock (red) but there
was no separation of fleets, ie CO/CP stock that ran to Edgware Road
would also find itself at Upminster etc.

The difference was that R stock was always formed into seven-coach
trains by then, while the CO/CP stock could be formed into seven or
six-coach trains. On the Edgware Road line there was only room for
six coaches, so it was always CO/CP stock.

On the main route, you did sometimes see a six-coach train of CO/CP
stock*, but they were usually seven.

C77 stock allowed the CO/CP stock to start being withdrawn, but some
of it was still needed for the main part of the line, which couldn't
be covered by the R stock alone.

It was first to go when the D78 stock came in.


*and a few on the Circle on Sundays

In my contemporary observations relatively few 7-car O/P stock trains
were run on the District. This is because there were few two-car O/P
stock units formed and you needed two for a 7 car train.

The District stock plan after the C69 stock cascaded the bulk of the O/P
stock from the Circle and Hammersmith & City was formed in the days when
District trains were 6 or 8 cars.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

C77 was slightly different to C69 (NB: not 68), with GEC motors and
power supplies instead of EE-AEI and some other minor internal and
external changes. After refurbishment in 1991-94, there are no
longer any visible differences.

The R59 stock also used different electrical equipment from the rest of
the R stock, IIRC.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 13 Jan, 17:04, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,





(MIG) wrote:
There was red stock on the District till the early 1980s when it was
replaced by the D78 stock (D78 started being introduced in 1980).

The main route of the District was run by a mixture of R stock
(silver) and CO/CP stock (red).

The Edgware Road line was run purely by CO/CP stock (red) but there
was no separation of fleets, ie CO/CP stock that ran to Edgware Road
would also find itself at Upminster etc.

The difference was that R stock was always formed into seven-coach
trains by then, while the CO/CP stock could be formed into seven or
six-coach trains. *On the Edgware Road line there was only room for
six coaches, so it was always CO/CP stock.

On the main route, you did sometimes see a six-coach train of CO/CP
stock*, but they were usually seven.

C77 stock allowed the CO/CP stock to start being withdrawn, but some
of it was still needed for the main part of the line, which couldn't
be covered by the R stock alone.

It was first to go when the D78 stock came in.

*and a few on the Circle on Sundays

In my contemporary observations relatively few 7-car O/P stock trains
were run on the District. This is because there were few two-car O/P
stock units formed and you needed two for a 7 car train.

I don't think that's right. Short trains were definitely rare on the
Upminster route, but nevertheless seen sometimes.

My 1975 Brian Hardy shows 61 three-car units and 50 two-car units.

That would be enough to make 25 seven-car trains plus 18 six-car
trains, of which several of the latter would be on the Edgware Road
line.

In the last days of the CO/CP stock, I remember seeing a six-car train
made up of three two-car units, but I'd never noticed any in that
formation before.



The District stock plan after the C69 stock cascaded the bulk of the O/P
stock from the Circle and Hammersmith & City was formed in the days when
District trains were 6 or 8 cars.

--
Colin Rosenstiel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -