On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, John B wrote:

an Oyster season ticket is valid at, and will open the gates at, any
station of any kind[*]in the zones for which it is valid.

[*] yes, pedants, even fire stations and police stations.

What about radio stations? Battle stations? The stations of the cross?

tom

--
Gotta have skills to pay those bills.

JB wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:53:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

If you were doing this you'd probably have to explain it if and when
you met a ticket inspector, but the combination is perfectly valid.

Yes that was my concern. I seemed to be getting some of the ticket
office staff saying you couldn't do it and some saying you could.


However it costs more! All prices below are for a month...

Cambridge - R1256 Travelcard - £380.20

versus

Cambridge - R456 - £314.90
plus zones 1-3 Travelcard - £109.10
Total - £424.

When I checked, Cambridge - R1256 was £441.60. The £380.20 seems to be
for a ticket valid to the ex-Thameslink London stations (Blackfriars,
City Thameslink and London Bridge)?


You're quite right, I'm an idiot!

The £380.20 price I quoted for Cambridge is indeed the price of a rail-
only season ticket from Cambridge through to London Bridge via the FCC
Thameslink route (and is also the price for City Thameslink and
Blackfriars).

The rail-only season ticket price for Cambridge to London Terminals
(i.e. Kings Cross, Moorgate or Liverpool Street) is £349.50.

Meanwhile, as you correctly say, the price for Cambridge - R1256 is
£441.60.

(I was looking up the prices quickly, so I must merely have presumed
that the higher of the two prices given was the Travelcard price, but
I was very much wrong in making such a presumption!)

And thus the Cambridge - R456 plus zones 1-3 Travelcard combo at £424
is indeed cheaper.

However, can I just say that I am a little less certain than I
originally was on the question of whether this would be valid. I can
say with certainty that combining Travelcards *within* the London
zones is legit - i.e. a zones 1-3 Travelcard plus a zones 4-6
Travelcard. It was on this basis that I presumed that a Travelcard
from an out-boundary station (i.e. a station outside of London, such
as Cambridge) would be OK.

In your scenario I'm just a bit wary of some requirement that perhaps
the train needs to stop somewhere within zones 4-6 for the Travelcard
element to "kick-in" (as it were), so allowing you to combine more
than one Travelcard. One could argue that part of the reason for the
higher price is the non-stop express journey into Kings Cross.

I'm still tempted to think it is a valid combination, but I'd get rock-
solid confirmation of this first. I can certainly see grippers getting
fussed about it. If it is a valid combination, FCC wouldn't be keen on
the knowledge spreading, given that they'd lose money. Though indeed
if it is valid, why isn't everyone else doing it?

Perhaps some ticketing gurus might help us work out the definitive
answer to this?


The main reason why I was interested though, was to be able to have an
Oyster card to use on the tube, rather than a paper season ticket.


Well, if it is allowed then you've got another good reason to do it,
as it is cheaper.

On 17 Jan, 19:48, Tom Anderson wrote:
an Oyster season ticket is valid at, and will open the gates at, any
station of any kind[*]in the zones for which it is valid.

[*] yes, pedants, even fire stations and police stations.

What about radio stations? Battle stations? The stations of the cross?

1) yes, it will open their gates, although possibly not their doors
2 and 3) I'm not sure really have gates, in any meaningful sense.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:36:04 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

However, can I just say that I am a little less certain than I
originally was on the question of whether this would be valid. I can
say with certainty that combining Travelcards *within* the London
zones is legit - i.e. a zones 1-3 Travelcard plus a zones 4-6
Travelcard. It was on this basis that I presumed that a Travelcard
from an out-boundary station (i.e. a station outside of London, such
as Cambridge) would be OK.

In your scenario I'm just a bit wary of some requirement that perhaps
the train needs to stop somewhere within zones 4-6 for the Travelcard
element to "kick-in" (as it were), so allowing you to combine more
than one Travelcard. One could argue that part of the reason for the
higher price is the non-stop express journey into Kings Cross.

I'm still tempted to think it is a valid combination, but I'd get rock-
solid confirmation of this first. I can certainly see grippers getting
fussed about it. If it is a valid combination, FCC wouldn't be keen on
the knowledge spreading, given that they'd lose money. Though indeed
if it is valid, why isn't everyone else doing it?

Perhaps some ticketing gurus might help us work out the definitive
answer to this?

I have emailed FCC to ask, although my last experience asking their
customer service team a question resulted in getting three different
answers and only getting a sensible answer when I forwarded their
nonsense to FCC's managing director.

On 17 Jan, 17:17, JB wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:37:17 -0600, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup
wrote:



From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

"19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit
their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one
ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s)
is/are not."

In this case (a) does not apply as Woking to Surbiton is not "Zonal",
(b) doesn't if the train doesn't stop at Surbiton and (c) doesn't as
both the tickets are season tickets and neither is issued by a PTE or
local authority.

So the combination is not valid.

So would a Cambridge to R456 season ticket and a TfL zones 1 to 3
annual travelcard be valid for a non stop Cambridge to Kings Cross,
since it would appear both are zonal tickets?

If so, if you had the TfL zones 1 to 3 on an Oyster card, woul this be
a problem, as you would need to use the Oyster to out and back into
Kings Cross?

JB

I did some digging and found elsewhere (
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg06234.html
) people with email replies from WAGN reporting that you could indeed
combine a season Zonal Travelcard and a NR season (say, Cambridge-
Oakley Park). Obviously, I've asked FCC this directly as they're now
the ones in charge (and awaiting a reply), but my reading of the NRCOC
is that it isn't valid, though my mind flip flops on this everytime I
read it.

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
....
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

I read that as:
As long as you mix a season ticket ( Cambridge-New Barnet ) that was
issued by a TOC and something which is not a season ticket, you should
be OK on the fast trains (which incidentally sounds to me like you
could use ordinary tickets to extend your journey on fast trains).

Now, the question is thus, "is an Oyster period TC a season ticket,
and if so, is TfL a PTE?" As far as I can tell, they're not a PTE,
which means the exclusion doesn't apply if the Oyster TC is a season
( but it does count as a gold card I believe, which sounds like a
season to me ), so if the Oyster TC *is* a season then no go.
Accordingly, if the Oyster TC isn't a season, you're good to go.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the replay form FCC, though they are
dragging their heels on this, but I can't blame them what with all the
delay replay paperwork they're having to do this last week

oh, and the fellow who commented on this article seems to be combining
it OK though (and quite recently, going by the date)
http://www.theticketcollector.co.uk/...season-ticket/

In article ,
(JB) wrote:

So would a Cambridge to R456 season ticket and a TfL zones 1 to 3
annual travelcard be valid for a non stop Cambridge to Kings Cross,
since it would appear both are zonal tickets?

I think you'd have problems this year getting a Cambridge to R456 season.
FCC (who set the fares) seem to have scrapped all Cambridge to
underground zones fares other than same day tickets. 'one' (who runs
Cambridge station) are struggling at present. Things may become clearer
later.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:06:21 -0800 (PST), Jamie Thompson wrote:

I did some digging and found elsewhere (
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg06234.html
) people with email replies from WAGN reporting that you could indeed
combine a season Zonal Travelcard and a NR season (say, Cambridge-
Oakley Park). Obviously, I've asked FCC this directly as they're now
the ones in charge (and awaiting a reply), but my reading of the NRCOC
is that it isn't valid, though my mind flip flops on this everytime I
read it.

Of course, the NCoC only set out your minimal entitlement. If a TOC
wishes to grant you additional privileges, such as using that
combination of tickets on a non-stop train, they have every right to.

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

I read that as:
As long as you mix a season ticket ( Cambridge-New Barnet ) that was
issued by a TOC and something which is not a season ticket, you should
be OK on the fast trains (which incidentally sounds to me like you
could use ordinary tickets to extend your journey on fast trains).

Now, the question is thus, "is an Oyster period TC a season ticket,
and if so, is TfL a PTE?"

Somewhere in the Conditions it explicitly states that period
Travelcards *do* count as season tickets for the purpose of this rule.

On 18 Jan, 07:03, asdf wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:06:21 -0800 (PST), Jamie Thompson wrote:
I did some digging and found elsewhere (
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch...005-08/msg0623...
) people with email replies from WAGN reporting that you could indeed
combine a season Zonal Travelcard and a NR season (say, Cambridge-
Oakley Park). Obviously, I've asked FCC this directly as they're now
the ones in charge (and awaiting a reply), but my reading of the NRCOC
is that it isn't valid, though my mind flip flops on this everytime I
read it.

Of course, the NCoC only set out your minimal entitlement. If a TOC
wishes to grant you additional privileges, such as using that
combination of tickets on a non-stop train, they have every right to.



"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

I read that as:
As long as you mix a season ticket ( Cambridge-New Barnet ) that was
issued by a TOC and something which is not a season ticket, you should
be OK on the fast trains (which incidentally sounds to me like you
could use ordinary tickets to extend your journey on fast trains).

Now, the question is thus, "is an Oyster period TC a season ticket,
and if so, is TfL a PTE?"

Somewhere in the Conditions it explicitly states that period
Travelcards *do* count as season tickets for the purpose of this rule.

You are quite right:

(n) "Season Ticket" means a ticket (including an Electronic Ticket)
which allows
you to travel for a period of 7 consecutive days or longer and will
have one
or more of the following characteristics:
(i) it shows the word "Season";
(ii) it shows the word "Travelcard";
(iii) it is endorsed with a photocard number;

....thus if TfL aren't a PTE (AFAIK, they're associates of the PTE
body, but not full members), then the exclusion doesn't apply, and the
clause that only one of the tickets is a season isn't fulfilled.

On Jan 18, 11:04*am, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On 18 Jan, 07:03, asdf wrote:



On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:06:21 -0800 (PST), Jamie Thompson wrote:
I did some digging and found elsewhere (
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch...005-08/msg0623....
) people with email replies from WAGN reporting that you could indeed
combine a season Zonal Travelcard and a NR season (say, Cambridge-
Oakley Park). Obviously, I've asked FCC this directly as they're now
the ones in charge (and awaiting a reply), but my reading of the NRCOC
is that it isn't valid, though my mind flip flops on this everytime I
read it.

Of course, the NCoC only set out your minimal entitlement. If a TOC
wishes to grant you additional privileges, such as using that
combination of tickets on a non-stop train, they have every right to.

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together
they
cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does
not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a
passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel
pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

I read that as:
As long as you mix a season ticket ( Cambridge-New Barnet ) that was
issued by a TOC and something which is not a season ticket, you should
be OK on the fast trains (which incidentally sounds to me like you
could use ordinary tickets to extend your journey on fast trains).

Now, the question is thus, "is an Oyster period TC a season ticket,
and if so, is TfL a PTE?"

Somewhere in the Conditions it explicitly states that period
Travelcards *do* count as season tickets for the purpose of this rule.

You are quite right:

(n) "Season Ticket" means a ticket (including an Electronic Ticket)
which allows
you to travel for a period of 7 consecutive days or longer and will
have one
or more of the following characteristics:
(i) it shows the word "Season";
(ii) it shows the word "Travelcard";
(iii) it is endorsed with a photocard number;

...thus if TfL aren't a PTE (AFAIK, they're associates of the PTE
body, but not full members), then the exclusion doesn't apply, and the
clause that only one of the tickets is a season isn't fulfilled.

One other thing to consider is that a Cambridge - R456 season and a
Zone 1-3 Travelcard season are both Zonal tickets and so are allowed
to be combined under clause 19a of the conditions of carriage. The
fact that neither, one or both are seasons doesn't seem to matter.
Clause 19 is clearly allows any of the options, as worded (see
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...misc/NRCOC.pdf)

I used two travelcard seasons for a few weeks after I moved from Zone
2 to Zone 5 (A zone 1-2 annual and a zone 3-5 weekly) until the
paperwork went through for an upgrade to a Zone 1-5 annual. Both were
loaded on my Oyster and there were never any problems with its use.

If you are combining a Cambridge - New Barnet ordinary season with a
Travelcard season then I agree that you are holding two seasons,
however does the wording explicitly exclude combining two seasons? I
see the wording that if one of the tickets is a season, but no
coverage if both are. You could also try and get a season issued from
Boundary Zone 3 to Cambridge, but I'm not sure if such tickets are
available.