On Jan 23, 10:46*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:21:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
But Oyster PAYG has been valid on Silverlink County/London Midland
trains between Euston and Harrow & Wealdstone for ages, indeed (I
think) since Oyster PAYG began back in 2004.

You absolutely sure of that? *Even if it was, though, it was not
publicised as such.


The Euston to Harrow route has always been on the list of National
Rail services where PAYG was valid. There was no distinct between fast
and slow trains.

See http://web.archive.org/web/200406062...om/buy_1_4.php

This is the earliest oyster PAYG National Rail list that I can find in
the web archive.

On 23 Jan, 22:46, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:21:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
But Oyster PAYG has been valid on Silverlink County/London Midland
trains between Euston and Harrow & Wealdstone for ages, indeed (I
think) since Oyster PAYG began back in 2004.

You absolutely sure of that? Even if it was, though, it was not
publicised as such.


Yes. I cannot be a 100% certain that Oyster PAYG was valid from H&W on
the fast trains when the system went live on 05/01/04, because I
wasn't paying attention to such things back then, however I'd be
absolutely amazed to hear that it wasn't. It was certainly valid on
the Bakerloo and DC line trains from H&W.

Also, take a look at this post from a thread in November 2005, where I
specifically mention having just made a H&W to Euston journey using
Oyster PrePay (i.e. PAYG):
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....90cb54391444cf

OK, so I don't specifically mention that I travelled on the fast
Silverlink County train, but I did - I remember it distinctly because
I cautiously asked at two ticket offices (either side of the station)
if it was legit, got the OK (twice) then spent some time searching for
an Oyster reader - they were only located on the bridge serving the DC
line platforms. At the end of my journey the train came into either
platform 16, 17 or 18 at Euston, and I then had to search to find
another Oyster reader there (there was only one back then, next to a
pillar).

Which I guess does somewhat prove your point that it wasn't at all
well publicised! Back then the station was managed by Silverlink, who
I guess would not have wanted to go out of their way to tell people
about this, whereas now it is managed by London Underground (as a
result of it being a London Overground station) - and LU will be a lot
more forward in providing such information. Also, given the extension
of Oyster PAYG up to Watford, I imagine there would have been some
quite clear posters provided detailing PAYG validity.

Plus H&W is now a gated station, which may have prompted passengers to
think about/ ask about / notice posters about the validity of Oyster
PAYG on fast trains.

All in all it looks like I've just gone some way to constructing your
argument for you. So perhaps you have a point. However I'm still
somewhat sceptical of this idea that a significant number of
passengers have transferred from the Bakerloo - I'd think that if
going to Euston was more convenient for them, that's the way they'd
already be going, Oyster or no Oyster.


Anyway, my perhaps rather blunt opinion on this is that I certainly
don't begrudge the people of Harrow from wanting to get from central
London in 13 minutes non-stop instead of 40 minutes (from Oxford
Circus) all stations on the Bakerloo line.

Nor do I, but perhaps differential pricing could have kept locals on
the local services as much as possible. It works from Milton Keynes
Central off-peak.



I know you don't mean it like that, but 'keeping locals on local
services as much as possible' does seem to carry an undertone that
locals should know their place (or perhaps it's just a Royston
Vaseyesque undertone of "local shops for local people"... er, I'm
getting sidetracked here...).

I tend towards the opinion that fast trains from central London can
and should do a bit of stopping in outer London ("why should Watford
get a fast service and Harrow shouldn't" etc).

Regarding differential pricing, apart from the difficulty of actually
enforcing it (see the saga of London Midland not accepting Oyster PAYG
from Watford, before giving in after a week), I'm far from convinced
that it's such a great idea for shorter journeys such as this. Plus,
is it even really a problem - from what I hear, these peak trains are
pretty civilised, unlike what happens elsewhere, so is a mild bit of
crowding for a short period really an issue?

Anyway, the hoi polloi will only be on the train for quarter of an
hour, and if I was one of them I'm pretty sure I'd just stand in the
vestibule rather than faff around getting a seat.

On 23 Jan, 22:11, wrote:
On Jan 23, 5:00 pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

I note that National Rail do not recognise the existence of Zones 7 to
9.

http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_K.pdf

"National Rail do not issue tickets with a description of Zones 7,8,9
but use the actual station description"

Also "All Zones" means Zones 1-6 as far as National Rail are
concerned.

National Rail don't issue an 'all zones travelcard'. The ones I've
bought have always said (I think, from memory) 'R1256' as the
destination


Yes, that's what is printed on the ticket, but that doesn't mean that
"All Zones Travelcard" is a term that isn't used.

There are 18 instances of the term "All Zones Travelcard" being used
in section K of the National Fares Manual - the link to that document
was provided by the OP.

It has also commonly been used in publicity and literature concerning
the Travelcard. Any ticket office clerk will know exactly what you
want if you ask for an All Zones Travelcard (or at least until 2008
they would!), and National Rail ticket machines sell All Zones
Travelcards as well (certainly the Southeastern ones do, I'll keep my
eyes open for the rest).

It is a commonly used and understood term and clearly used to mean a
zones 1-6 Travelcard - the problem now, with the introduction of zones
7-9, is that the term has now lost its clear cut meaning. Confusion
beckons.

Paul Scott wrote:

much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal
system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere -
and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere.

Actually ... I rather like the idea of the zones spreading ever
outwards. With Zone 43 including the great arc of Wrexham, Chester,
Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and Hull, it looks like a
one-zone ticket will be quite good value, though knowing the way that
such boundaries are set, I expect a Chester to Manchester via Knutsford
ticket would have to be a 2-zoner. ;-)
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632915.html
(40 024 at Reading, 17 Jan 1981)

On Jan 23, 8:36 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar

wrote:
Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few
years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed
reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London.

Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other
passengers.

As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland
"mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than
it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the
Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone.

I was shocked at how busy the ~19:00 to Bletchley was, hardly anyone
got off at Harrow where I boarded (19:16), but I could barely fit in.
I've never had to stand on a train on that line before

On Jan 23, 8:36 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:34:24 +0000, James Farrar

wrote:
Probably the latter, going off past experiences (admittedly a few
years ago now). The train companies in general have always seemed
reluctant to implement any initiative that comes from London.

Because those initiatives benefit London, and not always other
passengers.

As an example, since Oyster PAYG became valid on London Midland
"mainline", the 1824 EUS-Northampton has become decidedly busier than
it was before. Presumably the PAYG users were previously using the
Bakerloo to Harrow and Wealdstone.

I don't understand why there would be any change. Oyster's always been
valid to H&W on all trains.

And since PAYG has been valid all the way to Watford Junction, it's
been much much cheaper[1] to travel after 7pm. So I'd have expected
the 19:04 to be the train that saw a dramatic increase in traffic if
any did.

Provided you make at least one of your journeys in the 7pm-7am window
it's cheaper to use PAYG rather than an annual gold card from Watford
Junction

WJ-Euston 2268 which is 8.70 per business day. PAYG is 8.50 per
day[1]. Once you allow for at least 28 days holiday it's 9.70 per day
by goldcard.

WJ-Zone1 2604. 10GBP/business day. PAYG is 9.00. Allowing for
holidays, goldcard is 11.20.

[1] Assuming one journey in the 7am-7pm and one in the 7pm-7am
periods.

Tim.

On Jan 24, 10:43 am, Paul Weaver wrote:

I was shocked at how busy the ~19:00 to Bletchley was, hardly anyone
got off at Harrow where I boarded (19:16), but I could barely fit in.
I've never had to stand on a train on that line before

I'd think that was the 19:04 which is the first cheap train by PAYG.
IIRC the 18:54 first stop is Watford Junction.

I been deliberately avoiding the 19:04 because I guessed it would be
packed.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a timetable alteration that moves this
train earlier by 4 (or 5) minutes.

(Of course, moving all the trains later by 10 minutes would also help
because then there would be a 19:04 and a 19:14)

However, you've been lucky if you've never had to stand. Those trains
are always busy. It's quieter from about the 19:54 through to about
21:54 then it starts getting busy again.

Tim.

On Jan 23, 5:55*pm, Mizter T wrote:
What would be good would be if National Rail systems were updated so
that they too could issue Travelcards that include zones 7-9. In a
sense they can, as they use the actual station description - but I'm
unclear whether such Travelcards that include actual stations as the
origin (or destination - but I think only origin is possible) can be
used for unlimited travel as opposed to just being valid for a
straight return journey.

In the days of Zones A-D, I was told that asking for an All Zones
travelcard issued *from* Amersham to Zones 1-6, would count as the NR
equivalent to All Zones + A-D, and this was the same price with a
railcard (GBP4.80) as a regular 'All Zones'.

We had no problems purchasing the tickets (at East Croydon). A friend
put this ticket through the barriers at Amersham, confident the ticket
would return as the system would know it was valid for unlimited trips
in Zones A-D, and he was correct; the ticket was returned and he was
able to use it to get back in through the barriers.

Does this mean that a Amersham to Zones 1-6 travelcard is now
effectively a Zones 1-9 travelcard? Or does it have the validity of
the old A-D?

Also, much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal
system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere -
and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere.

Paul

Although it isn't the Greater London boundary in quite a few cases
(e.g. Epping and Elstree).

Chiltern Railways have a neat diagram on their trains showing both the
London and Centrocard zones.

I can see the London Zonal system and PAYG eventually spreading to the
inner suburban limits (e.g Hertford, Dartford, Slough, Shenfield) but
not further.

On Jan 24, 11:16*am, "
wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:43 am, Paul Weaver wrote:



I was shocked at how busy the ~19:00 to Bletchley was, hardly anyone
got off at Harrow where I boarded (19:16), but I could barely fit in.
I've never had to stand on a train on that line before

I'd think that was the 19:04 which is the first cheap train by PAYG.
IIRC the 18:54 first stop is Watford Junction.

I been deliberately avoiding the 19:04 because I guessed it would be
packed.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a timetable alteration that moves this
train earlier by 4 (or 5) minutes.

(Of course, moving all the trains later by 10 minutes would also help
because then there would be a 19:04 and a 19:14)

However, you've been lucky if you've never had to stand. Those trains
are always busy. It's quieter from about the 19:54 through to about
21:54 then it starts getting busy again.

Tim.

The other problem with the 19.04 is that it is only four coaches,
whilst near all the other services are eight coaches at this time of
day. If the train was lengthened, then it would be comfortable. I'd
hope that this will happen from the December 2008 timetable or when
all the class 321s have been replaced by Desiros as finding a spare
unit will be slightly easier. The other problem with the 19.04 is that
is an all stations Watford - Bletchley and so a fair number of
passengers don't have an alternative train.

I use the 19.04 on occasion and I usually get a seat if I arrive just
after the 18.54 (which is first stop Harrow) has left. There are a
fair number of people who get off at Harrow, but not enough to leave
seats free for people who have been standing.