Paul Scott wrote:

much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal
system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere -
and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere.

Actually ... I rather like the idea of the zones spreading ever
outwards. With Zone 43 including the great arc of Wrexham, Chester,
Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and Hull, it looks like a
one-zone ticket will be quite good value, though knowing the way that
such boundaries are set, I expect a Chester to Manchester via Knutsford
ticket would have to be a 2-zoner. ;-)
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632915.html
(40 024 at Reading, 17 Jan 1981)

Chris Tolley wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:

much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal
system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere -
and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere.

Actually ... I rather like the idea of the zones spreading ever
outwards. With Zone 43 including the great arc of Wrexham, Chester,
Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and Hull, it looks like a
one-zone ticket will be quite good value, though knowing the way that
such boundaries are set, I expect a Chester to Manchester via Knutsford
ticket would have to be a 2-zoner. ;-)

Some countries do have a national zone model, where you pay for the
zones you pass through. They use boxes or cells rather than concentric
rings as the zones.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 24 Jan, 23:43, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Chris Tolley wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:

much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal
system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere -
and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere.

Actually ... I rather like the idea of the zones spreading ever
outwards. With Zone 43 including the great arc of Wrexham, Chester,
Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and Hull, it looks like a
one-zone ticket will be quite good value, though knowing the way that
such boundaries are set, I expect a Chester to Manchester via Knutsford
ticket would have to be a 2-zoner. ;-)

Some countries do have a national zone model, where you pay for the
zones you pass through. They use boxes or cells rather than concentric
rings as the zones.



This is how things are done in Tyne & Wear - see:
http://www.networkticketing.com/selector.html

or for a more detailed PDF of the above:
http://www.nexus.org.uk/ufs/shared/i...ne_Map_Col.pdf
(though the above PDF map omits some important zonal boundary lines in
the middle of the Tyne river).

Thankfully these don't come into play when you want a day ticket -
they're only relevant for the weekly, monthly or annual multi-
operator

The numbering logic behind the zones seems bizarre at first sight -
the zone numbers ascend in a sort of diagonal sweep from the south
west to the north east of the metropolitan county of T&W. However I
think it may be designed this was to make it easy to issue and -
crucially - verify the validity of tickets with zonal combinations
that are in a row or in a ring (think of a busy bus driver checking
tickets). Note that the Tyne ferry has zone 38 all to itself.

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Mizter T wrote:

On 24 Jan, 23:43, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Chris Tolley wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:

much as it might seem straightforward to have a London centred zonal
system spreading ever outwards, there will have to be a limit somewhere -
and it might as well be the Greater London boundary as anywhere.

Actually ... I rather like the idea of the zones spreading ever
outwards. With Zone 43 including the great arc of Wrexham, Chester,
Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and Hull, it looks like a
one-zone ticket will be quite good value, though knowing the way that
such boundaries are set, I expect a Chester to Manchester via Knutsford
ticket would have to be a 2-zoner. ;-)

Some countries do have a national zone model, where you pay for the
zones you pass through. They use boxes or cells rather than concentric
rings as the zones.

This is how things are done in Tyne & Wear - see:

http://www.nexus.org.uk/ufs/shared/i...ne_Map_Col.pdf

The numbering logic behind the zones seems bizarre at first sight -
the zone numbers ascend in a sort of diagonal sweep from the south
west to the north east of the metropolitan county of T&W.

Surely north west to south east? Oh, you mean like a raster? Yes, i see -
the lines of the raster run SW-NE, and the raster progresses NW-SE.

The diagonal is basically the axis parallel to the Tyne, isn't it? At
least, the downstream reach. It's akin to Stanford's 'logical north'.

However I think it may be designed this was to make it easy to issue and
- crucially - verify the validity of tickets with zonal combinations
that are in a row or in a ring (think of a busy bus driver checking
tickets).

Yes, and each line in the raster has its own leading digit, with the
second digit increasing along it, so that the corresponding zones in each
line are adjacent. Although 58-60 are special cases: they should be 65, 66
and 75, respectively.

It'd be fun to do a version of that map coloured by the orthogonal
elements of the zone numbers; say, number 0x in red to 5x in violet, and
x3 in a pale shade to x9 in a dark one. Or with patterns of dots or
stripes instead of shade, so you can see at a glance how the coordinate
meanders across the map.

Note that the Tyne ferry has zone 38 all to itself.

39. I wonder which zones it counts as being adjacent to? Any which have
piers, i suppose.

The '4 zones in a ring' option is described as 'any 3 zones in a ring plus
one adjacent zone'; does that mean i could have three in a ring and one
touching just one of them? 56, 58, 59 and 60, say?

tom

--
I had no idea it was going to end in such tragedy

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)


This is how things are done in Tyne & Wear - see:

http://www.nexus.org.uk/ufs/shared/i...ne_Map_Col.pdf

The numbering logic behind the zones seems bizarre at first sight -
the zone numbers ascend in a sort of diagonal sweep from the south
west to the north east of the metropolitan county of T&W.

Surely north west to south east? Oh, you mean like a raster? Yes, i see -
the lines of the raster run SW-NE, and the raster progresses NW-SE.

The diagonal is basically the axis parallel to the Tyne, isn't it? At
least, the downstream reach. It's akin to Stanford's 'logical north'.

However I think it may be designed this was to make it easy to issue and
- crucially - verify the validity of tickets with zonal combinations
that are in a row or in a ring (think of a busy bus driver checking
tickets).

Yes, and each line in the raster has its own leading digit, with the
second digit increasing along it, so that the corresponding zones in each
line are adjacent. Although 58-60 are special cases: they should be 65, 66
and 75, respectively.


You describe it a lot more eloquently than I could - but yes, that was
what I was trying to express, each of the two digits have meaning.


It'd be fun to do a version of that map coloured by the orthogonal
elements of the zone numbers; say, number 0x in red to 5x in violet, and
x3 in a pale shade to x9 in a dark one. Or with patterns of dots or
stripes instead of shade, so you can see at a glance how the coordinate
meanders across the map.


Yes, indeed, though I'm not sure how useful that'd be to the average
punter! My alternative would involve massively simplifying the whole
system! But of course, that would need the agreement of all the bus
companies involved,


Note that the Tyne ferry has zone 38 all to itself.

39. I wonder which zones it counts as being adjacent to? Any which have
piers, i suppose.

38, 39, it's all the same to me - so it's probably just as well I'm
not a bus driver on Tyneside or Wearside, I'd be letting on people
with all sorts of wrong zonal Traveltickets! (Though dare I suggest
that I might get along ok in London, given the total disinterest that
some drivers seem to have when it comes to checking tickets!)

The Tyne ferry sails between North and South Shields, so the adjacent
zones would be 29 and 38.


The '4 zones in a ring' option is described as 'any 3 zones in a ring plus
one adjacent zone'; does that mean i could have three in a ring and one
touching just one of them? 56, 58, 59 and 60, say?


From my reading of things, yes that looks like a legit combination.

Incidentally you can buy Travelticket renewals online on the website
of Nexus (the T&W PTE) - select the first option, "Network
Travelticket", to be taken into the system...
https://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/con...ickets+online/

....and you will find something interesting - the online system is
incapable of selling the "4 zones in a ring" combination! It seems
that if you want such a ticket you'll have to go and deal with someone
face to face.

Casual travellers will be happy to note that the T&W Metro operates a
far simpler concentric zone system, zones A, B and C...
http://tinyurl.com/3acd76

....though of course valid Network Traveltickets (i.e. those with the
correct numbered zones) are accepted on the Me'ro.


And just to prove that things can change for the better, the
"Transfare" ticket scheme has recently been simplified - these are
tickets that allow for through journeys from bus to Metro or vice-
versa. However, perhaps just so as to ensure things don't get too
simple the new Transfare scheme has introduced the new idea of
concentric yellow, green, and grey zones - thankfully these do
actually correspond with the Metro's concentric A, B and C zones, and
they also share the same colours except for Metro zone C being a shade
of violet whilst the outer Transfare zone is grey. I suppose the logic
is that the Transfare grey zone covers much more ground than the Metro
C zone.

Anyhow, here is a page on the new Transfare ticket scheme...
http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/conn...etro+Transfare

....and this leaflet shows the new Transfare yellow/green/grey zones
(PDF)...
http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/reso...fare%20map.pdf

The world is complicated!

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

And just to prove that things can change for the better, the
"Transfare" ticket scheme has recently been simplified - these are
tickets that allow for through journeys from bus to Metro or vice-
versa. However, perhaps just so as to ensure things don't get too
simple the new Transfare scheme has introduced the new idea of
concentric yellow, green, and grey zones - thankfully these do
actually correspond with the Metro's concentric A, B and C zones, and
they also share the same colours except for Metro zone C being a shade
of violet whilst the outer Transfare zone is grey. I suppose the logic
is that the Transfare grey zone covers much more ground than the Metro
C zone.

Anyhow, here is a page on the new Transfare ticket scheme...
http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/conn...etro+Transfare

...and this leaflet shows the new Transfare yellow/green/grey zones
(PDF)...
http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/reso...fare%20map.pdf

The world is complicated!

But it was definitely worth pointing out, if only to demonstrate how easy it
will be to program a national Oyster payg...

Paul S

On 25 Jan, 16:31, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

(snip)

And just to prove that things can change for the better, the
"Transfare" ticket scheme has recently been simplified - these are
tickets that allow for through journeys from bus to Metro or vice-
versa. However, perhaps just so as to ensure things don't get too
simple the new Transfare scheme has introduced the new idea of
concentric yellow, green, and grey zones - thankfully these do
actually correspond with the Metro's concentric A, B and C zones, and
they also share the same colours except for Metro zone C being a shade
of violet whilst the outer Transfare zone is grey. I suppose the logic
is that the Transfare grey zone covers much more ground than the Metro
C zone.

Anyhow, here is a page on the new Transfare ticket scheme...
http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/conn...es+and+tickets...

...and this leaflet shows the new Transfare yellow/green/grey zones
(PDF)...
http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/reso...e4fbc9c/Transf...

The world is complicated!

But it was definitely worth pointing out, if only to demonstrate how easy it
will be to program a national Oyster payg...

Paul S


Perhaps my sarcasm detector isn't working, but I'll take your comment
at face value!

One issue with implementing this Transfare scheme with some kind of
smartcard PAYG system would be the fact that neither bus fares nor
Transfares are flat-rate - look at the leaflet's example of a journey
where a passenger transfers from the Metro at Pelaw in the green zone
and then takes a bus to Washington in the grey zone. The passenger
would have to actively inform the driver of their final destination,
and the driver would have to enter this into their ticket machine and
then have the passenger scan the smartcard so as to ensure the correct
fare was debited. The only other way of doing it would be to implement
a touch-in and touch-out system on buses, which I think would be
totally unworkable.

In fact this has prompted me to start a new thread on utl to ask about
whether Oyster could theoretically support a distance based, non-flat
fare system - the thread is called "Oyster PAYG and differential bus
fares".

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:45:20 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Mizter T wrote:


This is how things are done in Tyne & Wear - see:

http://www.nexus.org.uk/ufs/shared/i...ne_Map_Col.pdf

The numbering logic behind the zones seems bizarre at first sight -
the zone numbers ascend in a sort of diagonal sweep from the south
west to the north east of the metropolitan county of T&W.

I can understand why you say that but I got used to it quickly - zones
17 and 26 covered my regular journeys!

Surely north west to south east? Oh, you mean like a raster? Yes, i see -
the lines of the raster run SW-NE, and the raster progresses NW-SE.

The diagonal is basically the axis parallel to the Tyne, isn't it? At
least, the downstream reach. It's akin to Stanford's 'logical north'.

Not seen it described like that before but you've made me go back and
look at it afresh.

However I think it may be designed this was to make it easy to issue and
- crucially - verify the validity of tickets with zonal combinations
that are in a row or in a ring (think of a busy bus driver checking
tickets).

I remember picking up the original leaflet for the zonal system before
it was brought into use and being very confused by it. I'd never seen
anything like it and yet it's simple when compared to some German fares
systems.

It settled down very quickly and the ease and simplicity of the
Travelcard ticket was massively popular. It was certainly one aspect of
the Tyne and Wear system that encouraged people to use public transport.
Fares were cheap but the Travelcard - in both peak and off peak versions
- offered very good value for money.

Now it's undermined by everyone - including the Metro - having their own
bewildering range of own operator tickets. The "updated" Transfare
scheme is another mess - another zonal system imposed on top of another
one. Dreadful and indicative of the worst aspects of deregulated
practice.

39. I wonder which zones it counts as being adjacent to? Any which have
piers, i suppose.

Although the zone is very long the sole remaining ferry service runs
between North Shields and South Shields. Therefore the valid and logical
adjacent zones are zones 29 and 38. There is a bus link to the pier at
North Shields as there is a very steep hill up to the town centre and
Metro station. There's little height differential on the South side and
a short walk up a ramp and some stairs brings you to the Market Place
where many buses leave from and 5 minutes further on is the Metro
station.

The only other ferry I recall being in a local timetable book was from
Wallsend to Hebburn and was timed for the shipyard shifts. It was never
in the Travelcard scheme although zone 39 would cover it.

The '4 zones in a ring' option is described as 'any 3 zones in a ring plus
one adjacent zone'; does that mean i could have three in a ring and one
touching just one of them? 56, 58, 59 and 60, say?

As a former Tyne and Wear resident and extensive user of Metro, the
original Transfare scheme and regular Travelcard purchaser then yes that
combination is perfectly valid.
--
Paul C