On 15 Feb, 17:27, "Lüko Willms" wrote:
Am Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:53:55 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

So, do I get Greyhound coaches thrown in as well, or is it simply
local buses?

Ask First Group, they own both.

Cheers,
L.W.


Going by past reports of the unreliability of what First's customer
service departments say, I dare suggest that if I wrote to them asking
if I could use a London bus pass on Greyhound coaches to cross the
continent I might well get an answer in the affirmative.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:14:59 +0000, barkingbill
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:27:17 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:35:02 +0000 someone who may be Tom Anderson
wrote this:-

There will also be some people who for bizarre reasons not worth going
into think that the symbol pronounced "pound" is a noughts-and-crosses
grid.
Astounding! As any fule know, this is called the octothorpe.
I call it a square.

As used previously on 1970s UK telephone keypads.

I thought it was called the portcullis.

No, there were some early (non-PO) keypads which actually had a square
rather than the "fracture" symbol. The latter symbol was called a
square in the instructions for use of MF telephones when they came
into common use with System X exchanges.

In message , Peter Campbell Smith
writes
"Mike Cawood, HND BIT" wrote in
:

There will also be some people who for bizarre reasons not worth
going into think that the symbol pronounced "pound" is a
noughts-and-crosses grid.

That's because the hash symbol in US keyboards is in the same place as
our pound symbol (shift 3).
Mike.

I believe the reason # is called a pound sign by Americans is that it is
sometimes used in the USA to mean pounds weight. In American usage, #3
means 'number 3' and 3# means '3 lbs'. The latter is a bit old-fashioned,
but you see it sometimes in markets and the like.

I seem to recall years ago hearing the # symbol called "Gate" as well.
Can anyone else confirm this?
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message
,
Mizter T writes
Which brings me round to thinking about the new English National Bus
Pass scheme for those 60+ or with a qualifying disability that
launches in April, which will allow holder to have free *local bus*
travel between 9.30am and 11pm weekdays and all day at weekends. I'm
reminded of a story Peter Masson told of a challenge he set himself in
his youth, which was to circumnavigate London in a day - but using a
"Green Rover" ticket which only allowed for travel on London Country
buses (the green ones), not LT's Central area buses (the red ones). I
believe he managed to get most of the way round on his Green Rover,
though did have to pay a fare on one or two bus routes.

So thinking along these lines, I eagerly await hearing of older
English folk who will take on the challenge of trying to cover great
distances using their free national bus pass, obviously only using
local buses. It could start off relatively small - for example a
journey between London and Brighton, or Manchester to Leeds - but
then it could gradually mushroom - Leeds to Newcastle, Manchester to
Newcastle, London to Newcastle, indeed Brighton to Newcastle... and we
haven't even considered the south west yet, let alone Land's End.
There is a long tradition of this. Early in the development of
Blackpool as a resort, many people would make their way there from the
East Lancashire towns (and even across in Yorkshire) by taking trams
from system to system, walking the unserved sections in between.

I recall also an article *many* years ago in Buses Magazine of two
people doing a John O'Groats to Land's End trip in this way. Also, in
a later "Buses Annual" Stewart J. Brown and Gavin Booth did a cross
country trip from I think Liverpool to Hull in this way.

It's one of those things I've toyed with trying many times but alas it's
harder these days as the bus network has some remarkable gaps sometimes.
A Birmingham - Bristol trip in this way was a long-held ambition of mine
but there appears now to be no realistic way of going by bus from
Gloucester to Bristol, amazingly.

I do wonder if the "local bus" aspect of the new concessionary pass will
sometimes lead to confusion as to what does and does not constitute a
"local bus". Trent's TP service is one "grey area" I'd say. There
also was once a National Express service which became a local bus for
part of its length in the Pennines somewhere I seem to recall.

Tour buses such as City Sightseeing also advertise "local fares
available" (I understand to get some sort of deal with diesel duty). I
wonder if that might make *them* liable to carry 60+ passengers free of
charge? Test case coming I suspect!

Doubtless, someone will soon be posting here with answers to these and
many other questions.

I've had a hard but satisfying day working in Abingdon, though, so
having checked my e-mail I'm off for a bath and a beer!
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ian Jelf wrote:

I recall also an article *many* years ago in Buses Magazine of two
people doing a John O'Groats to Land's End trip in this way. Also, in
a later "Buses Annual" Stewart J. Brown and Gavin Booth did a cross
country trip from I think Liverpool to Hull in this way.

It's one of those things I've toyed with trying many times but alas it's
harder these days as the bus network has some remarkable gaps sometimes.
A Birmingham - Bristol trip in this way was a long-held ambition of mine
but there appears now to be no realistic way of going by bus from
Gloucester to Bristol, amazingly.

In the good old days of the National Wanderbus Pass (£2.97: Hants &
Dorset issued it as 3 x 99p tickets) I made several longish journeys
from Bulford, e.g.

Bulford - Salisbury - Southampton - Portsmouth - Brighton - Seaford
Bulford - Andover - Basingstoke - Heathrow - London - Cambridge
Bulford - Andover - Newbury - Oxford - Coventry - Leicester

Peter Beale

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:51:43 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message
,
Mizter T writes
Which brings me round to thinking about the new English National Bus
Pass scheme for those 60+ or with a qualifying disability that
launches in April, which will allow holder to have free *local bus*
travel between 9.30am and 11pm weekdays and all day at weekends. I'm
reminded of a story Peter Masson told of a challenge he set himself in
his youth, which was to circumnavigate London in a day - but using a
"Green Rover" ticket which only allowed for travel on London Country
buses (the green ones), not LT's Central area buses (the red ones). I
believe he managed to get most of the way round on his Green Rover,
though did have to pay a fare on one or two bus routes.

So thinking along these lines, I eagerly await hearing of older
English folk who will take on the challenge of trying to cover great
distances using their free national bus pass, obviously only using
local buses. It could start off relatively small - for example a
journey between London and Brighton, or Manchester to Leeds - but
then it could gradually mushroom - Leeds to Newcastle, Manchester to
Newcastle, London to Newcastle, indeed Brighton to Newcastle... and we
haven't even considered the south west yet, let alone Land's End.

London to Brighton is 68 (London to say Camberwell Green) then 468
(Camberwell Green to Croydon) then 405 (Croydon to Redhill) then
Metrobus 100 (Redhill to Crawley) then Metrobus 273 (Crawley to
Brighton).

I think Leeds to Newcastle would be a heck of a struggle these days due
to previous cuts in North Yorkshire. googles Well Newcastle - Durham
- Darlington - Richmond - Ripon - Leeds would be possible but I doubt
you'd achieve a return trip in a day.

I do wonder if the "local bus" aspect of the new concessionary pass will
sometimes lead to confusion as to what does and does not constitute a
"local bus". Trent's TP service is one "grey area" I'd say. There
also was once a National Express service which became a local bus for
part of its length in the Pennines somewhere I seem to recall.

Certainly the National Express services from Newcastle to Scotland via
Jedburgh worked on that basis and I think they still do.

http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/reso...NAT-070305.pdf

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:51:43 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

Tour buses such as City Sightseeing also advertise "local fares
available" (I understand to get some sort of deal with diesel duty). I
wonder if that might make *them* liable to carry 60+ passengers free of
charge? Test case coming I suspect!

It's defined as those bus routes registered with the Traffic
Commissioners as local bus routes. That in itself is clear-cut, but
to the passenger it is not - for example, the Stagecoach X5 is (was) a
local bus route in places, but not in other places, and at one point
there was a bit near Cambridge for which it was subsidised to be a
local bus route on a Sunday but not on any other day.

Perhaps a requirement to display some kind of signage indicating the
bus route's status may follow.

I have no idea if tour bus operators are required to register as local
bus routes with the Traffic Commissioners, nor what special
arrangements may apply in London where such registration is redundant
because of TfL having full control of service provision. I suspect,
though, that your mention of tour buses getting diesel duty relief
would suggest that they are so registered (as I'm not aware of another
way of obtaining the bus fuel duty rebate) and thus that passes would
be valid.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In message , at 16:43:49 on Sun,
17 Feb 2008, Ian Jelf remarked:
I seem to recall years ago hearing the # symbol called "Gate" as well.
Can anyone else confirm this?

Yes, that yet another one of the names.

http://pages.zoom.co.uk/leveridge/di...tml#Octothorpe
--
Roland Perry

Ian Jelf wrote:

In message
,
Mizter T writes

Which brings me round to thinking about the new English National Bus
Pass scheme for those 60+ or with a qualifying disability that
launches in April, which will allow holder to have free *local bus*
travel between 9.30am and 11pm weekdays and all day at weekends. I'm
reminded of a story Peter Masson told of a challenge he set himself in
his youth, which was to circumnavigate London in a day - but using a
"Green Rover" ticket which only allowed for travel on London Country
buses (the green ones), not LT's Central area buses (the red ones). I
believe he managed to get most of the way round on his Green Rover,
though did have to pay a fare on one or two bus routes.

So thinking along these lines, I eagerly await hearing of older
English folk who will take on the challenge of trying to cover great
distances using their free national bus pass, obviously only using
local buses. It could start off relatively small - for example a
journey between London and Brighton, or Manchester to Leeds - but
then it could gradually mushroom - Leeds to Newcastle, Manchester to
Newcastle, London to Newcastle, indeed Brighton to Newcastle... and we
haven't even considered the south west yet, let alone Land's End.

There is a long tradition of this. Early in the development of
Blackpool as a resort, many people would make their way there from the
East Lancashire towns (and even across in Yorkshire) by taking trams
from system to system, walking the unserved sections in between.


It's splendid to hear there's some pedigree in such ventures.

I'm afraid I'm more ignorant of matters pertaining to Lancashire than
I care to admit, hence I've never heard that told before, but it
sounds very interesting. Any idea how many tram systems could
theoretically be involved in such an excursion, and how far would the
walks between them be?

I have to say I think a little bit of this attitude would do us well
in the modern day - people often seem very reluctant to make changes
that involve even short walks between stations, or a bus stop and
station. I meanwhile perhaps take a little to much satisfaction in
doing such things! (OK I admit it, I'm a transport nerd!)


I recall also an article *many* years ago in Buses Magazine of two
people doing a John O'Groats to Land's End trip in this way. Also, in
a later "Buses Annual" Stewart J. Brown and Gavin Booth did a cross
country trip from I think Liverpool to Hull in this way.


Brown and Booth sound like they were great men... but I've never heard
of them! Please enlighten me, were they noted bus writers of the era?

(Unfortunately if I heard someone was a "bus writer" nowadays I would
first wish to ascertain whether or not that meant they were a tagger
aka vandal.)


It's one of those things I've toyed with trying many times but alas it's
harder these days as the bus network has some remarkable gaps sometimes.
A Birmingham - Bristol trip in this way was a long-held ambition of mine
but there appears now to be no realistic way of going by bus from
Gloucester to Bristol, amazingly.


You could allow yourself to 'cheat' once by getting an NX coach for
this leg - only three a day mind, at 11.40, 14.05 and 20.05.

It is sad to say that I know 'country folk' who know next to nothing
about their local bus services - said services might be quite
spectacularly deficient, but nonetheless they still exist - however if
I suggest I/we come/go/have a day out using the bus I'm met with looks
of astonishment! Of course in oh-so many places the bus network is a
sad shadow of its former self.


I do wonder if the "local bus" aspect of the new concessionary pass will
sometimes lead to confusion as to what does and does not constitute a
"local bus". Trent's TP service is one "grey area" I'd say. There
also was once a National Express service which became a local bus for
part of its length in the Pennines somewhere I seem to recall.

Tour buses such as City Sightseeing also advertise "local fares
available" (I understand to get some sort of deal with diesel duty). I
wonder if that might make *them* liable to carry 60+ passengers free of
charge? Test case coming I suspect!


Aha - that explains something for me! I had indeed always been
somewhat perplexed by sightseeing buses advertising the existence of
"local fares", especially in London, but I had thought (to the limited
extent I had though about it) that it was a genuine pitch for custom -
not amongst Londoners you understand, but just amongst unadventurous/
tired/ lost tourists who might see a familiar sightseeing bus they had
ridden sometime over the previous few days and sought refuge aboard
it, in the knowledge that it would take them slowly but surely back to
where their hotel was, or some such! I did think such a thing would be
quite ridiculous, but still within the bounds of possibility - I'm
glad to have had that cleared up!

I'm not sure whether such sightseeing operators will be overly keen on
letting mobs of older English people on board - that said I suppose
they would be recompensed for it! I'm sure I read somewhere (can't
remember where though) that the National Bus Pass scheme meant
operators would be compensated for the full fare that would otherwise
have been paid - but I do find that very hard to believe. Anyone know
the broad outlines of how it will work?


Doubtless, someone will soon be posting here with answers to these and
many other questions.

I've had a hard but satisfying day working in Abingdon, though, so
having checked my e-mail I'm off for a bath and a beer!


No buns today?

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:51:43 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message
,
Mizter T writes
Which brings me round to thinking about the new English National Bus
Pass scheme for those 60+ or with a qualifying disability that
launches in April, which will allow holder to have free *local bus*
travel between 9.30am and 11pm weekdays and all day at weekends. I'm
reminded of a story Peter Masson told of a challenge he set himself in
his youth, which was to circumnavigate London in a day - but using a
"Green Rover" ticket which only allowed for travel on London Country
buses (the green ones), not LT's Central area buses (the red ones). I
believe he managed to get most of the way round on his Green Rover,
though did have to pay a fare on one or two bus routes.

So thinking along these lines, I eagerly await hearing of older
English folk who will take on the challenge of trying to cover great
distances using their free national bus pass, obviously only using
local buses. It could start off relatively small - for example a
journey between London and Brighton, or Manchester to Leeds - but
then it could gradually mushroom - Leeds to Newcastle, Manchester to
Newcastle, London to Newcastle, indeed Brighton to Newcastle... and we
haven't even considered the south west yet, let alone Land's End.

London to Brighton is 68 (London to say Camberwell Green) then 468
(Camberwell Green to Croydon) then 405 (Croydon to Redhill) then
Metrobus 100 (Redhill to Crawley) then Metrobus 273 (Crawley to
Brighton).


I thought the London to Brighton run could be an easily achievable
introductory one that just got people started, an eye opener as to the
new possibilities now available, as it were!


I think Leeds to Newcastle would be a heck of a struggle these days due
to previous cuts in North Yorkshire. googles Well Newcastle - Durham
- Darlington - Richmond - Ripon - Leeds would be possible but I doubt
you'd achieve a return trip in a day.


Stay in a B&B and use the money saved on not having to buy coach fares
for a night out on the Bigg Market...

....or maybe something a little classier!


I do wonder if the "local bus" aspect of the new concessionary pass will
sometimes lead to confusion as to what does and does not constitute a
"local bus". Trent's TP service is one "grey area" I'd say. There
also was once a National Express service which became a local bus for
part of its length in the Pennines somewhere I seem to recall.

Certainly the National Express services from Newcastle to Scotland via
Jedburgh worked on that basis and I think they still do.

http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/reso...NAT-070305.pdf


I'm curious as to...

(a) why it is classed as a local bus service for the trip across
Northumberland - is it to take advantage of the lower diesel duty,
because it is subsidised or indeed a combo of the two?
(Indeed the same question can be asked of other such examples around
the country, though I will add that can't find any mention of a
subsidy for the 383 on the Northumberland CC website.)

(b) how many people really use it as local bus service? I suppose it
would provide three and a half hours shopping time in Newcastle.

(c) whether NX actually offer it as a commercially viable service?

Still, it would be odd to use the 383 for a return day trip from
Otterburn to the Toon and find oneself sat next to someone from
Wrexham headed to Edinburgh!