I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car diagrams. It
seemed to me that instead of indicating the places like Victoria provide
access to National Rail you now get an emphasis on airport connections.
How long has it been like this?

On 14 Feb, 15:17, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:
I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car diagrams. It
seemed to me that instead of indicating the places like Victoria provide
access to National Rail you now get an emphasis on airport connections.
How long has it been like this?


The line diagrams actually provide bith sets of information if
appropriate - at stations that provide interchange with National Rail
(NR), the station itself is indicated with the interchange station
symbol (a white circle with a black outline) as well as an NR (or
indeed BR) double arrow symbol. At interchanges where NR provides a
train service to airports this is additionally indicated in the box
below.

This is the PDF of the combined Circle and H&C lines' diagram, which
also features the and District line's 'Wimbleware' section:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...h-and-City.pdf

The other line diagrams are as follows (courtesy of Walter Briscoe who
recently provided the links in a post on a recent thread):

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/bakerloo.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/central.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/district.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/jubilee.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/metropolitan.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/northern.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/piccadilly.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/victoria.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...looandCity.pdf

Graham Harrison wrote:
I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car
diagrams. It seemed to me that instead of indicating the places
like Victoria provide access to National Rail you now get an
emphasis on airport connections. How long has it been like this?

It's been like this since at least September 2006, as that's when I
complained to LUL about the District Line diagram showing "Trains to
Heathrow" from Ealing Broadway, which is an advert for a rival company
(Heathrow Connect). I was triggered to do that by an anxious passenger
who had been advised correctly to change to the Piccadilly at Acton
Town, but then noticed the contrary advice on the line diagram, and
asked for my help in resolving his dilemma.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On 14 Feb, 17:06, "Richard J." wrote:
Graham Harrison wrote:
I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car
diagrams. It seemed to me that instead of indicating the places
like Victoria provide access to National Rail you now get an
emphasis on airport connections. How long has it been like this?

It's been like this since at least September 2006, as that's when I
complained to LUL about the District Line diagram showing "Trains to
Heathrow" from Ealing Broadway, which is an advert for a rival company
(Heathrow Connect). I was triggered to do that by an anxious passenger
who had been advised correctly to change to the Piccadilly at Acton
Town, but then noticed the contrary advice on the line diagram, and
asked for my help in resolving his dilemma.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

I think it's somewhat absurd to consider provision of such information
in terms of being an "advert for a rival company" - I'm certainly not
in favour of LU readopting their old territorial ways that they used
to have with regards to British Rail / National Rail.

However the specific point you make with regards to Ealing Broadway
being indicated as an interchange point for "Trains to Heathrow" is
one I very much agree with - on seeing the District line diagrams
which featured this the capacity for confusion that they could cause
was one of the first things that came to mind, given that most
Heathrow bound District passengers - in west London at least - will be
looking to change to the Piccadilly at some point.

Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Feb, 17:06, "Richard J." wrote:

It's been like this since at least September 2006, as that's when I
complained to LUL about the District Line diagram showing "Trains to
Heathrow" from Ealing Broadway, which is an advert for a rival
company (Heathrow Connect). I was triggered to do that by an
anxious passenger who had been advised correctly to change to the
Piccadilly at Acton Town, but then noticed the contrary advice on
the line diagram, and asked for my help in resolving his dilemma.

I think it's somewhat absurd to consider provision of such information
in terms of being an "advert for a rival company" - I'm certainly not
in favour of LU readopting their old territorial ways that they used
to have with regards to British Rail / National Rail.

However the specific point you make with regards to Ealing Broadway
being indicated as an interchange point for "Trains to Heathrow" is
one I very much agree with - on seeing the District line diagrams
which featured this the capacity for confusion that they could cause
was one of the first things that came to mind, given that most
Heathrow bound District passengers - in west London at least - will be
looking to change to the Piccadilly at some point.

Perhaps a half way house solution would be to have a box under 'Piccadilly'
at Acton Town reading 'change for Heathrow Airport' as well?

Paul S

On Feb 14, 5:33*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Feb, 17:06, "Richard J." wrote:
It's been like this since at least September 2006, as that's when I
complained to LUL about the District Line diagram showing "Trains to
Heathrow" from Ealing Broadway, which is an advert for a rival
company (Heathrow Connect). *I was triggered to do that by an
anxious passenger who had been advised correctly to change to the
Piccadilly at Acton Town, but then noticed the contrary advice on
the line diagram, and asked for my help in resolving his dilemma.

I think it's somewhat absurd to consider provision of such information
in terms of being an "advert for a rival company" - I'm certainly not
in favour of LU readopting their old territorial ways that they used
to have with regards to British Rail / National Rail.

However the specific point you make with regards to Ealing Broadway
being indicated as an interchange point for "Trains to Heathrow" is
one I very much agree with - on seeing the District line diagrams
which featured this the capacity for confusion that they could cause
was one of the first things that came to mind, given that most
Heathrow bound District passengers - in west London at least - will be
looking to change to the Piccadilly at some point.

Perhaps a half way house solution would be to have a box under 'Piccadilly'
at Acton Town reading 'change for Heathrow Airport' as well?


It's not just a halfway house, it's bleedin obvious consistency with
other interchanges for services to airports.

And while competition is not appropriate in an integrated network,
people would reasonably expect to see more, not less, information
about the LU system in an LU train, so the absence of it when there is
NR information implies that the LU service doesn't exist.

On Feb 14, 7:17*am, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:
I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car diagrams. * It
seemed to me that instead of indicating the places like Victoria provide
access to National Rail you now get an emphasis on airport connections.
How long has it been like this?

As an aside: Does anyone know where these diagrams can be purchased?
The LT Museum used to carry them. I'm not sure that is true anymore.

Adrian

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On 14 Feb, 15:17, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:
I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car diagrams.
It
seemed to me that instead of indicating the places like Victoria provide
access to National Rail you now get an emphasis on airport connections.
How long has it been like this?


The line diagrams actually provide bith sets of information if
appropriate - at stations that provide interchange with National Rail
(NR), the station itself is indicated with the interchange station
symbol (a white circle with a black outline) as well as an NR (or
indeed BR) double arrow symbol. At interchanges where NR provides a
train service to airports this is additionally indicated in the box
below.

This is the PDF of the combined Circle and H&C lines' diagram, which
also features the and District line's 'Wimbleware' section:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...h-and-City.pdf

The other line diagrams are as follows (courtesy of Walter Briscoe who
recently provided the links in a post on a recent thread):

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/bakerloo.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/central.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/district.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/jubilee.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/metropolitan.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/northern.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/piccadilly.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/victoria.pdf
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...looandCity.pdf

I see what you mean. However, I think it's less than clear. Is my memory
getting bad or did stations like Victoria used to have the double arrow and
something along the lines of "Change for British (or National) Rail" as text
where it currently has "Trains to Gatwick"?

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:17:26 -0000, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:

I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car diagrams. It
seemed to me that instead of indicating the places like Victoria provide
access to National Rail you now get an emphasis on airport connections.
How long has it been like this?

When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. This seems to have been
abandoned. When, and why?

On Feb 14, 10:58*pm, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:17:26 -0000, "Graham Harrison"

wrote:
I was on the Circle last week and became aware of a change in the
representation of underground/NR interchanges on the in car diagrams. * It
seemed to me that instead of indicating the places like Victoria provide
access to National Rail you now get an emphasis on airport connections.
How long has it been like this?

When I lived in London the Victoria Line trains clevely had the
diagrams always pointing in the correct direction of travel so the
ones on either side of the carriage were mirror images with Brixton
and Walthamstow always at the correct end. *This seems to have been
abandoned. *When, and why?

It wasn't too bad on the Bakerloo and Victoria, where there are no
branches.

But I think the association people have with left and right being east
and west on maps still made it confusing.

It was disastrous when they also tried it on branched lines like the
District, ie you turn right to head south after heading west.