MIG wrote:

On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.


(big snip)


Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.


You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.


The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole.

much snippage

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

The "benefit" for me was that I paid the correct fare without having
to get off the train and touch in/out at the point where I crossed
into the area covered by my paper travelcard. *Now I get ripped off if
I don't go through that ridiculous exercise.

I have to say that if I regularly travelled outside the zones of my
Travelcard (on Oyster PAYG routes) I would just get my Travelcard on
Oyster.

It's still not the easiest thing in the world if you are south of the
Thames. I noticed recently that a major station like Lewisham has
only just started offering Oyster in the last few weeks, despite being
on the DLR (apart from a single machine that was often out of order).
In the period referred to, Oyster was even less available than it is
now.

When the machine is out of order, one doesn't want to spend fifteen
minutes finding a shop and missing trains, one just goes to the
counter for a paper ticket. Oyster stops are not always on the way to
the station.

My main point was that the extent of not touching in/out, before the
punitive rates were brought in, is inferred to be proof of fraud,
which is a totally false assumption.

I never touched in/out at boundary stations, but I always paid the
correct fare. For example, I got on at Acton Town when I had a zone 1
-2 travelcard and didn't choose to jump out at Turnham Green. No
fraud was committed and the correct revenue was collected.

(The stuff about surveillance is interesting and worthy of a longer
read and separate thread, because I've referred to it in the past, but
it wasn't in my bonnet at this point.)

On Feb 15, 9:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. *I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. *Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.

We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.







(big snip)

Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)

It's not a rare case at all. *It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. *You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.

You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? *The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off, or
...... something else?

tim

On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:
The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window..

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

Here is a page of official advice regarding Oyster PAYG at Wimbledon
from TfL's "oyster help" website:
htt
or via


Here's my rundown of what's what...

-Using Tramlink from Wimbledon-
(1) If you've entered Wimbledon station through the gates and are
going to use Tramlink, you must touch-in *again* on a standalone
Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform (platform 10) before you get on
the tram.

(2) If you are leaving Wimbledon via the gates after alighting
Tramlink you will be fine so long as you have touched-in your Oyster
card at the tram stop *before* you started your tram journey to
Wimbledon - *note* that even if you have a Bus Pass or Travelcard on
your Oyster card you still need to touch-in at the tramstop *before*
you commence your journey to Wimbledon.


-Using the LU District line from Wimbledon-
(3) If you've entered Wimbledon station through the gates and are
going to use LU, you need do nothing - however touching in on a
standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line platforms
shouldn't do any harm.

(4) Likewise, when alighting the LU District line and leaving
Wimbledon station all one needs to do is exit via the gates (and hence
touch-out there) - though again if one also touches out on a
standalone Oyster readers by the LU District line platforms before
going through the gates it shouldn't do any harm.


-Changing from Tramlink to LU District line-
(5) When changing from Tramlink to LU District line, *don't* touch-out
on the Tramlink platform (it may not do any harm, but only if you
haven't already made a free transfer from one tram to another -
otherwise you'll get charged another tram fare), however you *must*
touch-in on a standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line
platforms.

(6) Changing from LU District line to Tramlink - touch-out on a
standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line platforms, then
touch-in on a standalone Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform
(platform 10) before you get on the tram.


When changing from National Rail to Tramlink, simply touch-in on a
standalone Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform (platform 10) before
you start your tram journey.

However I am not totally sure of what one should do if they are
changing from National Rail to the LU District line at Wimbledon and
paying for the LU journey with Oyster PAYG. The arrangement certainly
used to be that one could simply touch-in on a standalone Oyster
reader next to the LU District line platforms - however one phrase
from that 'oyster help' page stuck out at me, because it says "Do not
start a pay as you go journey without touching in at the gates at the
entrance to Wimbledon station."

This could indicate that the way things have configured has somehow
changed, however I think it is merely somewhat unclear advice because
otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - I strongly suspect that one
can still merely touch-in on one of the standalone Oyster readers next
to the LU District line platforms before one gets on the Underground.
As it happens I will probably be down that way soon and will endeavour
to make a small detour to confirm that this is still the case.

Also, in the above examples I say that when Underground journey
touching in or out twice (once via the gates, and again via a
standalone reader next to the District line platforms) shouldn't cause
problems. I don't think it should, but it's possible I have overlooked
something here. Again I will endeavour to look into that to confirm my
understanding of it.


Everytime I have crossed from LU to Overground with Oyster, I have ended up
being stung - what is the advice here? Touch at the interchange station so
it knows you have been there, even though you are not exiting? I just get
onto an LO train and touch out at the eventual destination - and always end
up with "Seek Assistance" and all sorts of peculiar fares and journeys in my
history. I have tried both ways, and can't work out what I am doing wrong.
Neither, evidently, can LO staff.


You should just touch-in at the beginning and touch-out at the end of
the journey, don't worry about touching in at interchange points
(though if you are doing an out-of-station interchange, e.g. between
Hackney Central and Hackney Downs, of course you'll need to touch-out,
walk up the street and then touch-in).

If you could share the details of the specific problems you've had
then we could try and work out what's going on, i.e. what were your
start and end points, what route did you take, did you have a
Travelcard on your Oyster, what time of day was this and what makes
you think you were overcharged - did you get the £4 max cash fare
'penalty' and if so was this applied once or twice?
(If you don't want to make your journey details public then please
feel free to email me, my address is as given).


Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

Best WIshes,
LEWIS

From observation this seems to happen quite a lot, and has been
commented on here before. It's nothing to worry about - if the gates
have opened then you're fine. One likely explanation is that the
Oyster reader on the gate is reading your Oyster card for a second
time and then obviously rejecting it, because it has already just read
it, validated it and opened the gate for you - however this all takes
a split second. Perhaps this is caused by the fact that people tend to
move the Oyster card in a sweeping motion across the reader - though
when walking towards/through the gate this is something that's hard to
avoid doing. So, as I said don't worry about it - if the gate has
opened you're good to go - unless it's very busy and you've walked
through on somebody else's ticket, but you will notice this if you do.

Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:

(snip)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window.

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

Here is a page of official advice regarding Oyster PAYG at Wimbledon
from TfL's "oyster help" website:
htt
or via



Argh, I forgot to add the link to the relevant 'oyster help' page
about Wimbledon before I posted, so here it is:

https://transportforlondon.custhelp....p?p_faqid=2678
or via http://tinyurl.com/yqdwvk

Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the
window.

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

However I am not totally sure of what one should do if they are
changing from National Rail to the LU District line at Wimbledon and
paying for the LU journey with Oyster PAYG. The arrangement certainly
used to be that one could simply touch-in on a standalone Oyster
reader next to the LU District line platforms - however one phrase
from that 'oyster help' page stuck out at me, because it says "Do not
start a pay as you go journey without touching in at the gates at the
entrance to Wimbledon station."

This could indicate that the way things have configured has somehow
changed, however I think it is merely somewhat unclear advice because
otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - I strongly suspect that one
can still merely touch-in on one of the standalone Oyster readers next
to the LU District line platforms before one gets on the Underground.
As it happens I will probably be down that way soon and will endeavour
to make a small detour to confirm that this is still the case.



I think you're right, I've used the District line 'platform validators' at
Wimbledon in both directions when changing from LU to NR, a couple of times
this year, seems to work just as you'd expect, same as many other NR/LU
combined stations where access is on the paid side of the gates.

Paul

On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).


I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...

OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

First off is renewing one's season earlier than the day it is needed,
or the day before it is needed - and this can be done at all
touchscreen Tube ticket machines (like the one at Lewisham). I can't
remember what the timescale is for renewing a season Travelcard, or
indeed buying a new one, but you can do it something like two weeks in
advance, if not more - whilst I think the machines only offer start
dates within the next week, you can get more flexibility if you buy it
from a Tube ticket office (or possibly from a newsagent - see below).

Secondly is renewing one's season Travelcard at a newsagents that
deals with Oyster (a so called "Oyster Ticket Stop" - what used to be
called a pass agent). Loads of newsagents and convenience stores offer
this, and again you can do it in advance (not sure how in advance, but
I imagine it would be at least a week) - though whether they will take
a card payment for this is up to them, especially on a busy monday
morning!

Thirdly, a sophisticated method - buy it online or on the phone and
having it electronically 'sent' to an LU, DLR or London Overground
(LO) station of choice, so you can pick it up there - you do this
simply by touching-in or touching-out as appropriate. Again this can
be done in advance of the expiry of the old season Travelcard, and if
done online then you can set it up to send you a reminder email x
number of days before your current Travelcard expires.

This method would require you to travel on LU, DLR or LO for at least
part of your commute - for example, Orpington to Canary Wharf via
Lewisham would take you on the DLR between Lewisham and "the Wharf".
If you buy in advance using this method it will be available to be
'picked up' from your nominated station up to 5 days before its
commencement - and when you do successfully pick it up I think you
then get sent an email to confirm this.

Here is the 'oyster help' answer that deals with this:
https://transportforlondon.custhelp....php?p_faqid=71
or via http://tinyurl.com/2ezuvs


All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them.

On 15 Feb, 22:46, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the
window.

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?
However I am not totally sure of what one should do if they are
changing from National Rail to the LU District line at Wimbledon and
paying for the LU journey with Oyster PAYG. The arrangement certainly
used to be that one could simply touch-in on a standalone Oyster
reader next to the LU District line platforms - however one phrase
from that 'oyster help' page stuck out at me, because it says "Do not
start a pay as you go journey without touching in at the gates at the
entrance to Wimbledon station."

This could indicate that the way things have configured has somehow
changed, however I think it is merely somewhat unclear advice because
otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - I strongly suspect that one
can still merely touch-in on one of the standalone Oyster readers next
to the LU District line platforms before one gets on the Underground.
As it happens I will probably be down that way soon and will endeavour
to make a small detour to confirm that this is still the case.

I think you're right, I've used the District line 'platform validators' at
Wimbledon in both directions when changing from LU to NR, a couple of times
this year, seems to work just as you'd expect, same as many other NR/LU
combined stations where access is on the paid side of the gates.

Paul


It's just that oddly worded FAQ answer on the 'oyster help' website
that threw me somewhat. However if it was configured any differently
it would be most odd, and I can't really think of how one would
configure it any differently (at least not in the way that is
suggested by that FAQ answer).

On Feb 15, 10:06*pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? *Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off, or
..... something else?


Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...