On Feb 15, 11:11*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:







On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? *The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...


I have used that one at times. Also, having intended to use it, had
to get a paper travelcard (you can't really suggest leaving the
station, which has no adjacent shops, looking for an Oyster Stop,
rather than just going to the counter for a paper one).

In the last few weeks I was there and the counters had just started
dealing in Oyster. I haven't bought anything at Lewisham since then
though. On the day I saw notices informing people of it, the whole
lot was closed.


OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

The solutions involve assuming in advance that the machine won't work
(in this case). There's something not quite right about that.


First off is renewing one's season earlier than the day it is needed,
or the day before it is needed - and this can be done at all
touchscreen Tube ticket machines (like the one at Lewisham). I can't
remember what the timescale is for renewing a season Travelcard, or
indeed buying a new one, but you can do it something like two weeks in
advance, if not more - whilst I think the machines only offer start
dates within the next week, you can get more flexibility if you buy it
from a Tube ticket office (or possibly from a newsagent - see below).

Secondly is renewing one's season Travelcard at a newsagents that
deals with Oyster (a so called "Oyster Ticket Stop" - what used to be
called a pass agent). Loads of newsagents and convenience stores offer
this, and again you can do it in advance (not sure how in advance, but
I imagine it would be at least a week) - though whether they will take
a card payment for this is up to them, especially on a busy monday
morning!

Thirdly, a sophisticated method - buy it online or on the phone and
having it electronically 'sent' to an LU, DLR or London Overground
(LO) station of choice, so you can pick it up there - you do this
simply by touching-in or touching-out as appropriate. Again this can
be done in advance of the expiry of the old season Travelcard, and if
done online then you can set it up to send you a reminder email x
number of days before your current Travelcard expires.

This method would require you to travel on LU, DLR or LO for at least
part of your commute - for example, Orpington to Canary Wharf via
Lewisham would take you on the DLR between Lewisham and "the Wharf".
If you buy in advance using this method it will be available to be
'picked up' from your nominated station up to 5 days before its
commencement - and when you do successfully pick it up I think you
then get sent an email to confirm this.

Here is the 'oyster help' answer that deals with this:https://transportforlondon.custhelp....rtforlondon.cf...
or via http://tinyurl.com/2ezuvs

All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them

I do understand that there are ways in which someone in South London
who knows what days they need a travelcard for in future could get it
put on their Oyster in advance.

I just don't see why going to a station from which you are starting a
journey, in order to get or renew a ticket for that journey, requires
any level of disorganisation or should be treated with contempt.

There are reasons why people find themselves in possession of a paper
travelcard. I don't think there's any moral justification for the
hassles they then face if they then need to do something like go one
zone extra on LU one day. It's not like they pay any less for it.

Mizter T wrote:

I am well aware of the worries about surveillance that Oyster
potentially brings (and that you share) - however thus far there
haven't been any properly justified allegations (as opposed to
conspiracy theory talk) that travel data is being misused or widely
used for surveillance purposes by TPTB. However let's look at some
facts...

* "The usage history of each card is retained on an eight week rolling
basis".
* After eight weeks, "anonymised journey information is retained for
research purposes".
* Only "a limited number of authorised individuals within TfL can

Putting on my tin foil hat, is this limited to 10 or 200 people, or 3000
plus the cleaners?

access Oyster card data and no external organisations have direct
access to the data".

They have to phone up and ask for it to be e-mailed over each they want
it :-)




--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

I had similar happen to me at City Thameslink - all the gates were open
and turned off, the oyster readers on the way 'in' were off, but on the
way 'out' were on. Seeing a large poster on the wall saying "oyster
users must always touch in and touch out", there were no staff in the
station, I touched my card on the working reader, and was 'fined' £5 for
my trouble! (My logic for touching 'out' on the way 'in' being I assumed
that when the gates were turned off, the 'out' readers were redefined as
'through', otherwise why weren't they turned off as well, or the 'in'
left on)

However, a phone call to the oyster helpline got me a refund. The
downside being like topup, one has to physically touch in, and like you I
don't live in London so I had to make another call a few days before my
next visit.

Anyway, give them a call on 0845 330 9876 (0800-2000) and I'm sure
they'll be sympathetic.

Alan

In article ,
(John) wrote:

*Subject:* Oyster PAYG query
*From:* "John"
*Date:* Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:35:50 -0000

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been
overcharged. I've registered the card online and checked all the
details of journeys I made on one day recently - and they are
correct. The problem from my point of view relates to a journey
where I didn't touch in but did touch out resulting in a further £4
charge for that day. .......

On 16 Feb, 08:29, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
I am well aware of the worries about surveillance that Oyster
potentially brings (and that you share) - however thus far there
haven't been any properly justified allegations (as opposed to
conspiracy theory talk) that travel data is being misused or widely
used for surveillance purposes by TPTB. However let's look at some
facts...

* "The usage history of each card is retained on an eight week rolling
basis".
* After eight weeks, "anonymised journey information is retained for
research purposes".
* Only "a limited number of authorised individuals within TfL can

Putting on my tin foil hat, is this limited to 10 or 200 people, or 3000
plus the cleaners?


I have no idea but would be interested to know. I presume that the
information must be available to those who work on the Oyster
helpdesk, otherwise they can hardly do their job can they! I would
also presume that it's basically not available to those who do not
administer the day-to-day workings of the Oyster system, so for
example Peter Hendy and Tim O'Toole can't sit at their desk looking up
people with stupid names in the database. I would also strongly expect
that when any particular record is accessed, the details of the
operator/agent who accessed them are logged, as is standard procedure
for such systems. I would also hope that there are a number of other
checks and balances in place.

Incidentally I understand that the Oyster helpdesk is based within TfL
in London, though I think things may have been slightly different in
the early days where it may have been based outside TfL but still
within London - bearing in mind that Oyster is part of the Prestige
contract for ticketing services that is provided by the Transys
consortium. What the status is of the staff that work directly on day-
to-day administration of the Oyster system I don't know, but whether
they be employees of TfL, Transys or of one of the Transys consortium
members I would still expect the same rigorous data handling
procedures to apply, and I'm pretty confident that TfL is very tight
in ensuring that everyone complies by the rules - after all, public
confidence in the system is at stake.

Also, I don't think that taking a concern in these issues should
really be limited to the tin foil hat brigade, not least since it has
recently become clear how spectacularly competently (not) some public
bodies handle our data, as evidenced by the HMRC lost discs scandal
and subsequent revelations of similar failings. I have to say that I
wasn't especially shocked by many of those stories, though I think
they all demonstrated a bang out of order lackadaisical approach to
data security - the HMRC scandal in particular appeared to show just
how many staff seem to have unfettered access to a database of
millions of people's personal details (and at least some had the
subsequent ability to burn these details to disc to take away).

In addition one needs to consider how large databases, in particular
those of telecoms companies, are leaky - not because information in
electronic form gets carried away en masse, nor because external
organisations have access to it (though I wouldn't be outrageously
surprised to hear that GCHQ could directly access such databases), but
because a few insiders - I'm thinking call centre agents particularly
- are crooked, and take money from private investigators (whether
working on behalf of suspicious spouses or partners, newspapers or
something more malevolent) to look up details on the system, such as
call records (and possibly make a print out of them). The larger the
number of staff who have such access the higher the risk, obviously,
so this needs to be considered as well. Telecoms companies partly deal
with this by having a segregated VIP database and staff (so I wonder
if Oyster has anything similar), but ensuring that rigorous procedures
and monitoring are in place can help deal with such a threat.



access Oyster card data and no external organisations have direct
access to the data".

They have to phone up and ask for it to be e-mailed over each they want
it :-)


Ho ho! Thankfully the procedures do appear to ensure that any external
organisation has to properly justify their need for the data, plus
needs to have the statutory authority to make such a request, and all
requests are then assessed by TfL on a case-by-case basis. I've a
feeling that these aren't just well meant words.

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?


Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. I though you were talking about the
validator.

(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

On 16 Feb, 11:17, (Alan) wrote:
I had similar happen to me at City Thameslink - all the gates were open
and turned off, the oyster readers on the way 'in' were off, but on the
way 'out' were on. Seeing a large poster on the wall saying "oyster
users must always touch in and touch out", there were no staff in the
station, I touched my card on the working reader, and was 'fined' £5 for
my trouble! (My logic for touching 'out' on the way 'in' being I assumed
that when the gates were turned off, the 'out' readers were redefined as
'through', otherwise why weren't they turned off as well, or the 'in'
left on)


That certainly shouldn't have been the case - if gates are left open
for any reason then the Oyster readers on them should remain powered
on - though they will only active for the relevant direction (in or
out) as shown on the display on the gate.

I think that there were a few reports of similar troubles at LU
stations when the Oyster system first began, and perhaps staff hadn't
fully appreciated the necessity for the gates to remain active at all
times even when locked open. The gates at City Thameslink are pretty
new, so perhaps the staff there haven't got the hang of things. That's
not me making an excuse for them, just providing a possible
explanation.

If one does ever find oneself in this situation again then, if there
is one, use the standalone Oyster reader next to the manual gate (the
one that is literally like a garden gate) to touch-in or out as
appropriate - this reader will not make any presumption as to which
direction you are going - i.e. whether you are entering or leaving the
station. That said, the arrangement of there being a manual gate
doesn't always exist in newer installations, as it has been replaced
by a wide automatic gate suitable for those with luggage or in
wheelchairs etc.


However, a phone call to the oyster helpline got me a refund. The
downside being like topup, one has to physically touch in, and like you I
don't live in London so I had to make another call a few days before my
next visit.

Anyway, give them a call on 0845 330 9876 (0800-2000) and I'm sure
they'll be sympathetic.

Alan


They may well do. If you want to reach them using a geographic number
then you can call 020 7227 7886 (though I understand that soon 0845
numbers will be treated by telcos as being part of your free or
inclusive calling allowance to landlines).

Incidentally did you enquire about / did they offer the possibility of
obtaining a refund by cheque in the post?

On 16 Feb, 11:57, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:


I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?

Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. I though you were talking about the
validator.

Out of interest, I think I've only ever come across one or possibly
two Oyster validators (aka Oyster readers) that weren't working. There
was one at Addiscombe on Tramlink that I saw covered in silver spray
on paint, though I think it was still working underneath that.

Also, at most ungated stations where one needs to use a standalone
Oyster validator there is more than just the one validator.

Of course basically one cannot use Oyster PAYG for rail travel in
south London.


(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

For online purchases it does indeed work like this. Notionally one
needs to make a journey to do this, i.e. touch-in at one station and
touch-out at the other. One is certainly required to do that when
collecting a PAYG top-up or (setting up auto top-up), however given
that Travelcard users are not penalised for not touching-in/out I
expect that this doesn't matter - however I will endeavour to confirm
my expectation and report back here when I do.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On 15 Feb, 22:46, "Paul Scott" wrote:

I think you're right, I've used the District line 'platform validators'
at
Wimbledon in both directions when changing from LU to NR, a couple of
times
this year, seems to work just as you'd expect, same as many other NR/LU
combined stations where access is on the paid side of the gates.


It's just that oddly worded FAQ answer on the 'oyster help' website
that threw me somewhat. However if it was configured any differently
it would be most odd, and I can't really think of how one would
configure it any differently (at least not in the way that is
suggested by that FAQ answer).

With respect to the special case of Wimbledon & Trams, large areas of South
London will presumably be similarly special cases for tram interchanges once
all the NR suburban services come into the PAYG system - how many more
tram/rail stations will there be?

I wonder if Jan 09 will see any changes to the tram zoning - its a bit of an
odd setup at the moment after all...

Paul S

On Feb 16, 12:42*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Feb, 11:57, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:







"MIG" wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?

Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. *But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. *I though you were talking about the
validator.

Out of interest, I think I've only ever come across one or possibly
two Oyster validators (aka Oyster readers) that weren't working. There
was one at Addiscombe on Tramlink that I saw covered in silver spray
on paint, though I think it was still working underneath that.

Also, at most ungated stations where one needs to use a standalone
Oyster validator there is more than just the one validator.

Of course basically one cannot use Oyster PAYG for rail travel in
south London.



(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. *But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

For online purchases it does indeed work like this. Notionally one
needs to make a journey to do this, i.e. touch-in at one station and
touch-out at the other. One is certainly required to do that when
collecting a PAYG top-up or (setting up auto top-up), however given
that Travelcard users are not penalised for not touching-in/out I
expect that this doesn't matter - however I will endeavour to confirm
my expectation and report back here when I do.

Presumably (or perhaps I shouldn't presume) if you touch in at an NR
station that's got Oyster readers but no Oyster selling (like Putney I
think) with a zone 1 - 2 travelcard, and then, I dunno, do some kind
of trip via West Brompton and get off at Acton Town, it will record
you as having touched in at Putney (despite PAYG not being valid) and
charge the Oyster fare from the boundary at Turnham Green? Or would
it require a separate touch in at some intermediate point where your
travelcard was still valid?

MIG wrote:

much snippage

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

The "benefit" for me was that I paid the correct fare without having
to get off the train and touch in/out at the point where I crossed
into the area covered by my paper travelcard. �Now I get ripped off if
I don't go through that ridiculous exercise.

I have to say that if I regularly travelled outside the zones of my
Travelcard (on Oyster PAYG routes) I would just get my Travelcard on
Oyster.

It's still not the easiest thing in the world if you are south of the
Thames. I noticed recently that a major station like Lewisham has
only just started offering Oyster in the last few weeks, despite being
on the DLR (apart from a single machine that was often out of order).
In the period referred to, Oyster was even less available than it is
now.

When the machine is out of order, one doesn't want to spend fifteen
minutes finding a shop and missing trains, one just goes to the
counter for a paper ticket. Oyster stops are not always on the way to
the station.


I'll address these points in a reply to your post upthread in which
you raise similar points so as to avoid duplication (sorry, yesterday
evening I hadn't noticed this post hence I raised some similar points
in another branch of the thread).


My main point was that the extent of not touching in/out, before the
punitive rates were brought in, is inferred to be proof of fraud,
which is a totally false assumption.


I never intended to infer that this was a proof of fraud. However nor
do I think it is OK to make the counter-assumption - i.e. that all
those who failed to touch-in *and* touch-out were all acting in a
legitimate and honest manner.


I never touched in/out at boundary stations, but I always paid the
correct fare. For example, I got on at Acton Town when I had a zone 1
-2 travelcard and didn't choose to jump out at Turnham Green. No
fraud was committed and the correct revenue was collected.


(Incidentally I've looked up the appropriate fares for 2006 for the
examples I shall give, as it was in November 2006 that the 'max cash
fare' began to be applied - you can see the relevant fares PDF here -
http://snipurl.com/tfl_fares_1july_2006 )

In the particular example you gave there wouldn't have been a problem
- if you merely touched-in at Acton Town (zone 4) and then failed to
touch out, the fare charged would have been the minimum from that
station, so £1 (at any time) - and the zones 3&4 fare was also £1 (at
any time). So, as a holder of a Travelcard covering zones 1&2 you
certainly weren't leaving TfL out of pocket, and at no point in that
journey could you have been accused of travelling without a valid
ticket (though the Oyster T&Cs do clearly state that users must touch-
in and touch-out so technically you weren't complying with them).

But let's extend this logic a bit - if someone, holding a z1&2 paper
Travelcard, had started their journey from Heathrow using Oyster PAYG
then their card would have been debited £1 upfront on entry, which is
the minimum fare from a zone 6 station. However, during weekday
daytimes (7am-7pm) the zones 3-6 fare was £1.80 - thus if that person
had travelled into central London and then exited the network using
their paper z1&2 Travelcard they would not have paid the correct fare
and would have left TfL 80p out of pocket. Of course the problem for
TfL is that it would have been virtually impossible to catch someone
doing this, as if they were checked en-route outside z1&2 they could
simply present a validated Oyster and that would be fine - hence the
need to provide an incentive to users to touch-out, and a 'penalty'
for those who don't.

One last example, going back to Acton Town - literally. If someone did
the reverse of the Acton Town example you gave above, i.e. travelled
from central London to Acton Town whilst holding a z1&2 paper
Travelcard then that person would *undoubtedly* have been breaking the
rules, *even* if they intended to pay the extra using their Oyster
card. On the District line the z1&2 Travelcard would cover them up to
Turnham Green, but from Turnham Green to Acton Town they would have
been travelling without a valid ticket - and thus if ticket checked by
an RPI would have been liable to a Penalty Fare or prosecution. They
could even have been checked as they exited the ticket gates at Acton
Town - I saw RPIs who were very specifically only checking those who
had used Oysters to exit the gates from the SSL platforms at KXSP, and
then 'doing' those who hadn't touched-in before they began their
journey (perhaps on the extremities of the Met line).

(The same situation of course applies if they had travelling on a
westbound Piccadilly line train beyond Hammersmith - the last zone 2
station on the Pic - unless it was one of the few Pic line trains that
stopped at Turnham Green.)

The above provides a few ideas about the clues I'm sure the revenue
protection people would have been looking out for when trying to
identify people who were travelling fraudulently, before the max cash
fare 'penalty' was introduced.

Just to be absolutely clear, I wish to make it very plain that I am
not attempting to accuse you of any wrongdoing whatsoever, nor do I
want my comments to be taken as an inference to that effect. And I do
mean that.


(The stuff about surveillance is interesting and worthy of a longer
read and separate thread, because I've referred to it in the past, but
it wasn't in my bonnet at this point.)


I've expanded a bit on it elsewhere on this thread, but as you say it
is an interesting issue and one that shouldn't be dismissed out of
hand, but one that is worthy of a more level-headed approach than the
black helicopter conspiracy crowd provides.