I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been
overcharged. I've registered the card online and checked all the details
of journeys I made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem
from my point of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did
touch out resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within
the Tfl area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

However how this happened is what I consider unavoidable - I had a valid
National Rail ticket to Ealing Broadway where I changed to the Central
Line and intended to use my Oystercard. I was already inside the ticket
barrier/touch in button, merely changing platforms and saw no Oyster
readers at the entrance to the Central line platforms. If I failed to spot
them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this), but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

John

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:
Not living within
the Tfl area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

If I failed to spot them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.


TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and it is currently set at £4
which is indeed the maximum you will pay for a single Underground fare
if you buy a cash fare (i.e. buy a paper single LU ticket).

Note that this rises to £5 if one passes through the gates at some
National Rail stations on routes where Oyster PAYG is valid (e.g.
Liverpool Street or Euston) and one fails to touch-out at the end of
the journey or have already failed to touch-in at the start of the
journey.

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in) - and
yes, this is a widely known fact, at least within London.


If I failed to spot them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

I can also confirm this.


but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U


Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

~ ~ ~

The only place I have come across where there are no standalone Oyster
readers within the gated area is at Blackfriars (and by extension at
City Thameslink - see below). Oyster PAYG is valid on the central
section of FCC Thameslink between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge and
West Hampstead (and so is presumably also valid on Southeastern
between E&C and Blackfriars as well).

So if one was arriving at Blackfriars using a paper rail-only ticket
to "London Terminals" and wanted to continue further north then one
would have to exit the gates with the paper ticket and then re-enter
using Oyster PAYG. In fact "London Terminals" tickets are valid on
journeys from points south (only) as far as City Thameslink, so again
if one wanted to change over from a paper ticket to Oyster PAYG there
then they would have to exit the and then re-enter the gates.

On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and it is currently set at £4
which is indeed the maximum you will pay for a single Underground fare
if you buy a cash fare (i.e. buy a paper single LU ticket).

Note that this rises to £5 if one passes through the gates at some
National Rail stations on routes where Oyster PAYG is valid (e.g.
Liverpool Street or Euston) and one fails to touch-out at the end of
the journey or have already failed to touch-in at the start of the
journey.

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in) - and
yes, this is a widely known fact, at least within London.



If I failed to spot *them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

I can also confirm this.



but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U

Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.



~ ~ ~

The only place I have come across where there are no standalone Oyster
readers within the gated area is at Blackfriars (and by extension at
City Thameslink - see below). Oyster PAYG is valid on the central
section of FCC Thameslink between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge and
West Hampstead (and so is presumably also valid on Southeastern
between E&C and Blackfriars as well).

So if one was arriving at Blackfriars using a paper rail-only ticket
to "London Terminals" and wanted to continue further north then one
would have to exit the gates with the paper ticket and then re-enter
using Oyster PAYG. In fact "London Terminals" tickets are valid on
journeys from points south (only) as far as City Thameslink, so again
if one wanted to change over from a paper ticket to Oyster PAYG there
then they would have to exit the and then re-enter the gates.

MIG wrote:

On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.


(big snip)


Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.


You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.


The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole.

On Feb 15, 9:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. *I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. *Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.

We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.







(big snip)

Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)

It's not a rare case at all. *It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. *You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.

You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? *The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window.

Everytime I have crossed from LU to Overground with Oyster, I have ended up
being stung - what is the advice here? Touch at the interchange station so
it knows you have been there, even though you are not exiting? I just get
onto an LO train and touch out at the eventual destination - and always end
up with "Seek Assistance" and all sorts of peculiar fares and journeys in my
history. I have tried both ways, and can't work out what I am doing wrong.
Neither, evidently, can LO staff.

Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

Best WIshes,
LEWIS

In message of Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:30:13 in
uk.transport.london, Lew 1 writes

[snip]

Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

I suspect it may be a code 94 as a result of sliding a card across the
reader rather than placing it.

I raised a similar matter in
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...thread/thread/
37ceb57db7d39f6e/3db267321569c894?lnk=st&q=#3db267321569c894

I complained to TfL but got nothing coherent in response.


Best WIshes,
LEWIS



--
Walter Briscoe

On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:
The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window..

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

Here is a page of official advice regarding Oyster PAYG at Wimbledon
from TfL's "oyster help" website:
htt
or via


Here's my rundown of what's what...

-Using Tramlink from Wimbledon-
(1) If you've entered Wimbledon station through the gates and are
going to use Tramlink, you must touch-in *again* on a standalone
Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform (platform 10) before you get on
the tram.

(2) If you are leaving Wimbledon via the gates after alighting
Tramlink you will be fine so long as you have touched-in your Oyster
card at the tram stop *before* you started your tram journey to
Wimbledon - *note* that even if you have a Bus Pass or Travelcard on
your Oyster card you still need to touch-in at the tramstop *before*
you commence your journey to Wimbledon.


-Using the LU District line from Wimbledon-
(3) If you've entered Wimbledon station through the gates and are
going to use LU, you need do nothing - however touching in on a
standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line platforms
shouldn't do any harm.

(4) Likewise, when alighting the LU District line and leaving
Wimbledon station all one needs to do is exit via the gates (and hence
touch-out there) - though again if one also touches out on a
standalone Oyster readers by the LU District line platforms before
going through the gates it shouldn't do any harm.


-Changing from Tramlink to LU District line-
(5) When changing from Tramlink to LU District line, *don't* touch-out
on the Tramlink platform (it may not do any harm, but only if you
haven't already made a free transfer from one tram to another -
otherwise you'll get charged another tram fare), however you *must*
touch-in on a standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line
platforms.

(6) Changing from LU District line to Tramlink - touch-out on a
standalone Oyster reader next to the LU District line platforms, then
touch-in on a standalone Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform
(platform 10) before you get on the tram.


When changing from National Rail to Tramlink, simply touch-in on a
standalone Oyster reader on the Tramlink platform (platform 10) before
you start your tram journey.

However I am not totally sure of what one should do if they are
changing from National Rail to the LU District line at Wimbledon and
paying for the LU journey with Oyster PAYG. The arrangement certainly
used to be that one could simply touch-in on a standalone Oyster
reader next to the LU District line platforms - however one phrase
from that 'oyster help' page stuck out at me, because it says "Do not
start a pay as you go journey without touching in at the gates at the
entrance to Wimbledon station."

This could indicate that the way things have configured has somehow
changed, however I think it is merely somewhat unclear advice because
otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - I strongly suspect that one
can still merely touch-in on one of the standalone Oyster readers next
to the LU District line platforms before one gets on the Underground.
As it happens I will probably be down that way soon and will endeavour
to make a small detour to confirm that this is still the case.

Also, in the above examples I say that when Underground journey
touching in or out twice (once via the gates, and again via a
standalone reader next to the District line platforms) shouldn't cause
problems. I don't think it should, but it's possible I have overlooked
something here. Again I will endeavour to look into that to confirm my
understanding of it.


Everytime I have crossed from LU to Overground with Oyster, I have ended up
being stung - what is the advice here? Touch at the interchange station so
it knows you have been there, even though you are not exiting? I just get
onto an LO train and touch out at the eventual destination - and always end
up with "Seek Assistance" and all sorts of peculiar fares and journeys in my
history. I have tried both ways, and can't work out what I am doing wrong.
Neither, evidently, can LO staff.


You should just touch-in at the beginning and touch-out at the end of
the journey, don't worry about touching in at interchange points
(though if you are doing an out-of-station interchange, e.g. between
Hackney Central and Hackney Downs, of course you'll need to touch-out,
walk up the street and then touch-in).

If you could share the details of the specific problems you've had
then we could try and work out what's going on, i.e. what were your
start and end points, what route did you take, did you have a
Travelcard on your Oyster, what time of day was this and what makes
you think you were overcharged - did you get the £4 max cash fare
'penalty' and if so was this applied once or twice?
(If you don't want to make your journey details public then please
feel free to email me, my address is as given).


Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

Best WIshes,
LEWIS

From observation this seems to happen quite a lot, and has been
commented on here before. It's nothing to worry about - if the gates
have opened then you're fine. One likely explanation is that the
Oyster reader on the gate is reading your Oyster card for a second
time and then obviously rejecting it, because it has already just read
it, validated it and opened the gate for you - however this all takes
a split second. Perhaps this is caused by the fact that people tend to
move the Oyster card in a sweeping motion across the reader - though
when walking towards/through the gate this is something that's hard to
avoid doing. So, as I said don't worry about it - if the gate has
opened you're good to go - unless it's very busy and you've walked
through on somebody else's ticket, but you will notice this if you do.

Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 20:30, "Lew 1" wrote:

(snip)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window.

I've had no problems at Wimbledon. What problems have you had?

Here is a page of official advice regarding Oyster PAYG at Wimbledon
from TfL's "oyster help" website:
htt
or via



Argh, I forgot to add the link to the relevant 'oyster help' page
about Wimbledon before I posted, so here it is:

https://transportforlondon.custhelp....p?p_faqid=2678
or via http://tinyurl.com/yqdwvk