On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and it is currently set at £4
which is indeed the maximum you will pay for a single Underground fare
if you buy a cash fare (i.e. buy a paper single LU ticket).

Note that this rises to £5 if one passes through the gates at some
National Rail stations on routes where Oyster PAYG is valid (e.g.
Liverpool Street or Euston) and one fails to touch-out at the end of
the journey or have already failed to touch-in at the start of the
journey.

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in) - and
yes, this is a widely known fact, at least within London.



If I failed to spot *them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

I can also confirm this.



but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U

Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.



~ ~ ~

The only place I have come across where there are no standalone Oyster
readers within the gated area is at Blackfriars (and by extension at
City Thameslink - see below). Oyster PAYG is valid on the central
section of FCC Thameslink between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge and
West Hampstead (and so is presumably also valid on Southeastern
between E&C and Blackfriars as well).

So if one was arriving at Blackfriars using a paper rail-only ticket
to "London Terminals" and wanted to continue further north then one
would have to exit the gates with the paper ticket and then re-enter
using Oyster PAYG. In fact "London Terminals" tickets are valid on
journeys from points south (only) as far as City Thameslink, so again
if one wanted to change over from a paper ticket to Oyster PAYG there
then they would have to exit the and then re-enter the gates.

MIG wrote:

On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.


(big snip)


Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.


You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.


The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole.

On Feb 15, 9:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. *I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. *Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.

We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.







(big snip)

Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)

It's not a rare case at all. *It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. *You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.

You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? *The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off, or
...... something else?

tim

On Feb 15, 10:06*pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? *Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off, or
..... something else?


Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?


Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. I though you were talking about the
validator.

(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

On 16 Feb, 11:57, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:06 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote:


I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken

----------------------------------------------------------------

Out of interest, what is there not to work? Aren't they basically sealed
units?

Do they get completely trashed in sarf lundin, or does the power go off,
or
..... something else?

Most often won't read the credit/debit cards. But also non-specific
"out of order" bits of paper stuck on the screen, which may be the
same, but why try ...

-----------------------------------------------

Oh you mean the 'ticket' machine. I though you were talking about the
validator.

Out of interest, I think I've only ever come across one or possibly
two Oyster validators (aka Oyster readers) that weren't working. There
was one at Addiscombe on Tramlink that I saw covered in silver spray
on paint, though I think it was still working underneath that.

Also, at most ungated stations where one needs to use a standalone
Oyster validator there is more than just the one validator.

Of course basically one cannot use Oyster PAYG for rail travel in
south London.


(I have assumed that you were wanting to 'collect' an online purchase of a
new season ticket by touching the validator. But as I have never had an
Oyster season I really have no idea if it works like this).

tim

For online purchases it does indeed work like this. Notionally one
needs to make a journey to do this, i.e. touch-in at one station and
touch-out at the other. One is certainly required to do that when
collecting a PAYG top-up or (setting up auto top-up), however given
that Travelcard users are not penalised for not touching-in/out I
expect that this doesn't matter - however I will endeavour to confirm
my expectation and report back here when I do.

On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).


I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...

OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

First off is renewing one's season earlier than the day it is needed,
or the day before it is needed - and this can be done at all
touchscreen Tube ticket machines (like the one at Lewisham). I can't
remember what the timescale is for renewing a season Travelcard, or
indeed buying a new one, but you can do it something like two weeks in
advance, if not more - whilst I think the machines only offer start
dates within the next week, you can get more flexibility if you buy it
from a Tube ticket office (or possibly from a newsagent - see below).

Secondly is renewing one's season Travelcard at a newsagents that
deals with Oyster (a so called "Oyster Ticket Stop" - what used to be
called a pass agent). Loads of newsagents and convenience stores offer
this, and again you can do it in advance (not sure how in advance, but
I imagine it would be at least a week) - though whether they will take
a card payment for this is up to them, especially on a busy monday
morning!

Thirdly, a sophisticated method - buy it online or on the phone and
having it electronically 'sent' to an LU, DLR or London Overground
(LO) station of choice, so you can pick it up there - you do this
simply by touching-in or touching-out as appropriate. Again this can
be done in advance of the expiry of the old season Travelcard, and if
done online then you can set it up to send you a reminder email x
number of days before your current Travelcard expires.

This method would require you to travel on LU, DLR or LO for at least
part of your commute - for example, Orpington to Canary Wharf via
Lewisham would take you on the DLR between Lewisham and "the Wharf".
If you buy in advance using this method it will be available to be
'picked up' from your nominated station up to 5 days before its
commencement - and when you do successfully pick it up I think you
then get sent an email to confirm this.

Here is the 'oyster help' answer that deals with this:
https://transportforlondon.custhelp....php?p_faqid=71
or via http://tinyurl.com/2ezuvs


All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them.

On Feb 15, 11:11*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:







On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? *The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...


I have used that one at times. Also, having intended to use it, had
to get a paper travelcard (you can't really suggest leaving the
station, which has no adjacent shops, looking for an Oyster Stop,
rather than just going to the counter for a paper one).

In the last few weeks I was there and the counters had just started
dealing in Oyster. I haven't bought anything at Lewisham since then
though. On the day I saw notices informing people of it, the whole
lot was closed.


OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

The solutions involve assuming in advance that the machine won't work
(in this case). There's something not quite right about that.


First off is renewing one's season earlier than the day it is needed,
or the day before it is needed - and this can be done at all
touchscreen Tube ticket machines (like the one at Lewisham). I can't
remember what the timescale is for renewing a season Travelcard, or
indeed buying a new one, but you can do it something like two weeks in
advance, if not more - whilst I think the machines only offer start
dates within the next week, you can get more flexibility if you buy it
from a Tube ticket office (or possibly from a newsagent - see below).

Secondly is renewing one's season Travelcard at a newsagents that
deals with Oyster (a so called "Oyster Ticket Stop" - what used to be
called a pass agent). Loads of newsagents and convenience stores offer
this, and again you can do it in advance (not sure how in advance, but
I imagine it would be at least a week) - though whether they will take
a card payment for this is up to them, especially on a busy monday
morning!

Thirdly, a sophisticated method - buy it online or on the phone and
having it electronically 'sent' to an LU, DLR or London Overground
(LO) station of choice, so you can pick it up there - you do this
simply by touching-in or touching-out as appropriate. Again this can
be done in advance of the expiry of the old season Travelcard, and if
done online then you can set it up to send you a reminder email x
number of days before your current Travelcard expires.

This method would require you to travel on LU, DLR or LO for at least
part of your commute - for example, Orpington to Canary Wharf via
Lewisham would take you on the DLR between Lewisham and "the Wharf".
If you buy in advance using this method it will be available to be
'picked up' from your nominated station up to 5 days before its
commencement - and when you do successfully pick it up I think you
then get sent an email to confirm this.

Here is the 'oyster help' answer that deals with this:https://transportforlondon.custhelp....rtforlondon.cf...
or via http://tinyurl.com/2ezuvs

All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them

I do understand that there are ways in which someone in South London
who knows what days they need a travelcard for in future could get it
put on their Oyster in advance.

I just don't see why going to a station from which you are starting a
journey, in order to get or renew a ticket for that journey, requires
any level of disorganisation or should be treated with contempt.

There are reasons why people find themselves in possession of a paper
travelcard. I don't think there's any moral justification for the
hassles they then face if they then need to do something like go one
zone extra on LU one day. It's not like they pay any less for it.

MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 11:11�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 21:35, MIG wrote:

On Feb 15, 9:19 pm, Mizter T wrote:

MIG wrote:

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.

The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole

I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between being punished
for not touching in/out and being punished for renewing a travelcard
in south london on the day when the Oyster machine is broken (or there
isn't one).

I'm not quite sure where this broken Oyster machine might be, as it
can't be at a south London railway station as they don't exist at
these stations, primarily because you can't use Oyster PAYG on rail
routes in south London.

Unless of course it is the one at Lewisham you're referring to - where
there is indeed a single machine, presumably for the primary benefit
of DLR passengers who wish to top up their Oyster PAYG, though of
course of significant secondary benefit to those who want season
Travelcards on Oyster. If that is the one then yes, I have indeed
noticed that it gets sick more than any others - perhaps simply
because, whilst under cover, it is effectively outdoors...


I have used that one at times. Also, having intended to use it, had
to get a paper travelcard (you can't really suggest leaving the
station, which has no adjacent shops, looking for an Oyster Stop,
rather than just going to the counter for a paper one).


I suppose I wouldn't rely on that one machine being working, and would
instead get it from an Oyster Ticket Stop elsewhere en route to the
station. I might also try and buy a Travelcard in advance (e.g. to
start 'tomorrow') using that machine, and if I failed to do so because
the machine was knackered then I would purchase it elsewhere (e.g. at
a Tube station at the other end of my journey).


In the last few weeks I was there and the counters had just started
dealing in Oyster. I haven't bought anything at Lewisham since then
though. On the day I saw notices informing people of it, the whole
lot was closed.


I hadn't noticed that the ticket office at Lewisham had started to
deal with Oyster, nor did I know they were planning to, but I'm very
glad to hear that it now does - I wonder if Greenwich station does too
now?

Perhaps Southeastern became aware of just how much custom they were
losing at Lewisham from people buying their Travelcards on Oyster from
the machine there, perhaps by comparing like for like sales over the
past few years, or maybe simply through observation of how busy the
machine was (in particular with people who then headed towards the
mainline platforms, as opposed to the DLR).



OK, well I have a number of solutions for someone in this boat.

The solutions involve assuming in advance that the machine won't work
(in this case). There's something not quite right about that.


Machines break, so as I said above I wouldn't rely on it working all
the time. However, if I bought my Travelcard in advance then I could
well make use of it - and if it didn't work then I would work around
that.


(three alternative methods of purchase snipped)

All the above methods require a bit of advance planning - though with
the third method you can benefit from a reminder email which is
helpful. I understand that not everyone is always that organised - I'm
certainly capable of fantastic/absurd feats of disorganisation -
however, these methods are are there if people want to make use of
them

I do understand that there are ways in which someone in South London
who knows what days they need a travelcard for in future could get it
put on their Oyster in advance.

I just don't see why going to a station from which you are starting a
journey, in order to get or renew a ticket for that journey, requires
any level of disorganisation or should be treated with contempt.

There are reasons why people find themselves in possession of a paper
travelcard. I don't think there's any moral justification for the
hassles they then face if they then need to do something like go one
zone extra on LU one day. It's not like they pay any less for it.



I agree that it is somewhat absurd that the station from which you
start your journey cannot sell you a ticket in the format that you
want it on. However, if one is making a regular commute then things
are predictable and thus one can work around this without an immense
amount of effort - one could suggest that if one wants Oyster then the
station ticket office has just been moved to the corner shop that's
just up the road from the station.

I know people who don't have a regular commute- instead it varies
widely (wildly in fact) all over London - but they manage to buy the
season Travelcards they need OK with a trip to the newsagent. A bit of
a faff, but ultimately worth it for the hassle that one subsequently
avoid when they travel outside their Travelcard's zones on the
increasing number of PAYG routes. I just feel you're making mountains
out of a molehills - big, annoying molehills - but they are not an
insurmountable issue.

Of course when the TOCs eventually get real and agree to accept PAYG
across all their route in London then their ticket offices, and
hopefully at least some of their ticket machines, will also manage to
sell both PAYG top-ups and Travelcards on Oyster. It will happen.
Eventually. Then I'll be able to buy my season Travelcards from the
helpful staff at my local station.