On 22 Feb, 15:54, Mizter T wrote:
But by the looks of things sooner or later Eurostar isn't going to be
the owner of and hence be in charge of St Pancras station. It does of
course depend on how LCR is split up - will St Pancras be vested in
the owner of HS1/CTRL, or with Eurostar UK Ltd (EUKL)?

St Pancras is managed by Network Rail:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4394.aspx

....and will be vested in the owner of HS1:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle2910648.ece

There are arguments both ways - the train operator (EUKL) being in
charge makes some sense, with regards to the fact that they are the
ones who are using it every day, unless of course there are other new
operators on the scene when having an impartial station owner starts
to make a lot more sense.

Except that there are three (soon four) train operators in St Pancras,
with EUKL running the fewest services. Indeed, the fact that LCR was
allowed to spec the station in the first place probably explains why
the signing and walking routes for domestic rail are currently so
****poor...

Indeed how LCR is broken up could be taken as an indicator as to how
likely TPTB consider a new international operator is to come on to the
scene. Likewise, depending on how LCR is broken up, it could provide
the necessary incentive for a new operator, or indeed provide enough
of an obstacle so as to prevent a new operator considering it
worthwhile.

Will be interesting to see. Given the lack of cheap multibillion loans
for private equity buyouts (which is how the likes of Macquarie have
profited from similar previous acquisitions), I'd not be at all
surprisied to see Network Rail emerging as the successful bidder for
HS1.

I think the argument for vesting the stations in the ownership of the
HS1/CTRL company is stronger, and of course a lot less messy, than the
counter arrangement. EUKL presence at St Pancras, along with any
potential future operators, would thus be like an airline at an
airport terminal.

....or a TOC at a major station.

All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

Angels, pins, etc.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 22 Feb, 16:28, Martin Edwards wrote:
I believe this is the train which was discussed on That's Life. BR wanted to
get rid of it, but they weren't allowed to, because too many people used it.
So they omitted it from all public timetables for a few years, but carried
on running it. When this caused usage to plummet, they were then allowed to
get rid of it. This would be approx 1980.

Yes that's it exactly. My parents saw the programme. Note that this
was just when Friedmanism was beginning to bite.

Was there any indication given of /why/ BR wanted to get rid of such a
popular service? Or was it just about too popular to shut, but nowhere
near popular enough to make any money...?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Am Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:54:11 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

They might think to have a chance to buy EUKL when it is put up for
sale, or at least a controlling majority. Maybe by merging with
National Express...


Cheers,
L.W.

"Paul Scott" wrote

'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the
late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully seated
sleeper...

IIRC the Highwayman was a day train - though the routeing was as you state.
It ran, again IIRC, in the early 1970s, and although it was something of a
dead-end in development of rail travel it proved the need for lower fares
for leisure travellers. Before then long distance tickets were basically
limited to Ordinary Singles and Returns, though there had for many years
been Mid-Week Holiday Returns (Summer only, out and back on Tuesdays,
Wednesdays and Thursdays, return within one omonth of outward journey, but
not in teh same week). After the Highwayman, Economy and 17-day Returns were
developed, which were the forerunners of Savers and Supersavers.
As for overnight cheap trains you may have been thinking of Nightriders
which ran, IIRC, in the 1980s between Scotland and London. At one stage the
Nightrider seated portion of the overnight Aberdeen to London train
wasmarketed by and liveried for Stagecoach, this time as the forerunner of
rail privatisation.

Peter

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Paul Scott" wrote

'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the
late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully
seated
sleeper...

IIRC the Highwayman was a day train - though the routeing was as you
state.
It ran, again IIRC, in the early 1970s, and although it was something of a
dead-end in development of rail travel it proved the need for lower fares
for leisure travellers. Before then long distance tickets were basically
limited to Ordinary Singles and Returns, though there had for many years
been Mid-Week Holiday Returns (Summer only, out and back on Tuesdays,
Wednesdays and Thursdays, return within one omonth of outward journey, but
not in teh same week). After the Highwayman, Economy and 17-day Returns
were
developed, which were the forerunners of Savers and Supersavers.
As for overnight cheap trains you may have been thinking of Nightriders
which ran, IIRC, in the 1980s between Scotland and London. At one stage
the
Nightrider seated portion of the overnight Aberdeen to London train
wasmarketed by and liveried for Stagecoach, this time as the forerunner of
rail privatisation.


No this was definitely late 60s, I can date it to my father not having a car
for a few years, and even if the name is wrong, it was definitely an arrival
in FP at the crack of dawn. I was about 12 or 13 at the time.

Paul

John B wrote:

On 22 Feb, 15:54, Mizter T wrote:
But by the looks of things sooner or later Eurostar isn't going to be
the owner of and hence be in charge of St Pancras station. It does of
course depend on how LCR is split up - will St Pancras be vested in
the owner of HS1/CTRL, or with Eurostar UK Ltd (EUKL)?

St Pancras is managed by Network Rail:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4394.aspx


But just because they're contracted to run it means nothing - it's
ownership that counts.


...and will be vested in the owner of HS1:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle2910648.ece


OK - that seems pretty definitive!


There are arguments both ways - the train operator (EUKL) being in
charge makes some sense, with regards to the fact that they are the
ones who are using it every day, unless of course there are other new
operators on the scene when having an impartial station owner starts
to make a lot more sense.

Except that there are three (soon four) train operators in St Pancras,
with EUKL running the fewest services. Indeed, the fact that LCR was
allowed to spec the station in the first place probably explains why
the signing and walking routes for domestic rail are currently so
****poor...


But I was really thinking about the international part of the station
- as things stand, there's a segregated part of the station solely for
international services, and that doesn't look like it'll change soon.
My thinking was whether EUKL was going to control that part (i.e. by
owning it).


Indeed how LCR is broken up could be taken as an indicator as to how
likely TPTB consider a new international operator is to come on to the
scene. Likewise, depending on how LCR is broken up, it could provide
the necessary incentive for a new operator, or indeed provide enough
of an obstacle so as to prevent a new operator considering it
worthwhile.

Will be interesting to see. Given the lack of cheap multibillion loans
for private equity buyouts (which is how the likes of Macquarie have
profited from similar previous acquisitions), I'd not be at all
surprisied to see Network Rail emerging as the successful bidder for
HS1.


Very good point about the buyout and the current climate. However
similar question marks would surround an attempted purchase by Network
Rail - NR has big debts and might well be unhappy incurring any more,
they might have problems raising money for any such purchase, they
might be under government pressure not to get involved etc etc.

Just because Network Rail owning HS1 is the neatest solution in the
minds of rail enthusiasts doesn't mean it is going to happen. The
government may well want more of a payback on HS1 than Network Rail
can offer.


I think the argument for vesting the stations in the ownership of the
HS1/CTRL company is stronger, and of course a lot less messy, than the
counter arrangement. EUKL presence at St Pancras, along with any
potential future operators, would thus be like an airline at an
airport terminal.

...or a TOC at a major station.


Yes - but like it or not the way passengers have to be dealt with when
it comes to international train services to and from this country is
more similar to air travel than it is to domestic rail travel, albeit
without hold luggage. The whole 'check-in' arrangement has to be,
well, arranged, and passengers have to be herded through it. One part
of my thinking was that if EUKL was responsible for doing this, then
if a competing operator had managed to negotiate access to St P they
could still be given a hard time by EUKL. That said, competition rules
would probably mean they had to play ball.

Indeed I'm actually mildly curious to know how things are handled at
the international part of St Pancras' station at present. The
passenger facing staff who do the 'check-in' are EUKL - but do EUKL or
NR pay for the security staff, and who do they answer to? (I suppose
the answer is probably that EUKL, through LCR, pay NR to manage the
station and hence pay the security staff.) Who are the staff at
platform level - NR or EUKL? The staff at the booking office are
obviously EUKL.

Though having asked all those questions I actually realise that the
precise nature of the arrangements doesn't really matter!


All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

Angels, pins, etc.


Given that even if a competing service ever did run it would be likely
that EUKL at St Pancras would simply be obliged to treat it as if it
were one of its own services, it is all a bit of a moot point really!
It's good that the stations will be vested with HS1, so EUKL couldn't
just say "no" to a new entrant - but again, even if EUKL actually
owned the stations European competition rules would have kicked in and
forced them to open it up to other operators.

Anyway, issues about how precisely things would work at the St Pancras
interface would be very low on the priority list of any operator
genuinely considering running new services - the lack of suitable
trains being a somewhat more pressing issue.

It would of course be great if DB somehow bestowed a new dynamic
impetus on Eurostar through some kind of co-operative agreement or
joint-venture, and got trains running to further afield... but we're
back to familiar uk.railway territory here!

"Mizter T" wrote

Never heard of anything like that, it's very interesting. I'm now
wondering whether there were ever any other similar examples,
excluding times when engineering works or something else going wrong
necessitated it (like the recent occasions when GNER terminated at FP
- I hear it was mayhem, and I guess it was similarly chaotic at Harrow
& Wealdstone when Virgin had to stop/start short there).

I can't think of other cases where a London suburban station has been used
as the terminus of a long-distance train in regular working to avoid use of
the normal terminal station.

There have of course been other 'engineering' examples, like use of Ealing
Broadway for some trains during the 1967 resignalling of Paddington (others
diverted to Marylebone or Kensington Olympia). Summer trains to the Kent
Coast or Hastings have been known to start from Elephant & Castle or New
Cross, though I think that some of them ran ecs from the terminus.

Peter

"Mizter T" wrote

Thanks for outlining the service pattern, I couldn't quite discern it
from a quick search through past usenet threads. I presume that May
2001 is the date when the service started operating on a sunday too?
The weekend Camden Road stop was evidently designed for those heading
to the markets and other delights of Camden town.

It does sounds like it had some potential.

IIRC it was marketed particularly as a through train from the GEML to
Feltham (for the bus to Heathrow Airport).

Peter

On 22 Feb, 17:39, "Lüko Willms" wrote:
Am Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:54:11 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

They might think to have a chance to buy EUKL when it is put up for
sale, or at least a controlling majority. Maybe by merging with
National Express...

Cheers,
L.W.


As you know, London and Continental Railways (LCR) is about to be
broken up into three parts - EUKL, HS1 and property interests.

National Express Group plc (NXG) has a 20.94% stake in LCR. It might
also be worth noting that SNCF owns 13.6% of LCR.

When LCR gets broken up I don't know whether NXG or SNCF will be able
to influence the situation with regards to who ends up with ownership
of EUKL - involvement of the UK government makes this whole thing more
complex.

However I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that NXG loses money as a
result of it's involvement in LCR - because EUKL is loss-making, and
EUKL is a wholly owned subsidiary of LCR.

I wouldn't be that surprised to hear that when LCR gets broken up, NXG
simply sell up and walk away.

I'll be honest and say that I still haven't quite got my head round
the relationship between the government and LCR, apart from the fact
that LCR owes lots of money and the government has guaranteed a large
part of those loans to LCR (i.e. the lenders are as sure of getting
the money they lent to LCR back as if they had lent the government
itself the money).


The precise figures regarding LCR shareholders are taken from a
National Audit Office report, "Progress on the Channel Tunnel Rail
Link", published in July 2005. I don't think the shareholdings have
changed since then, not least because LCR is a privately held company
rather than one listed on the stock exchange hence shares don't change
hands overnight.

See the footnotes on page 9 (PDF page 10) of the report:
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...-06/050677.pdf


Of course InterCapital and Regional Rail Ltd (ICRRL) is contracted by
EUKL to run Eurostar's UK operations until 2010 - and NXG own 40% of
ICRRL. But this in itself does not confer any ownership rights over
EUKL to NXG. Indeed, it might simply mean that NXG is even more
acutely aware of the fact that the Eurostar operation is loss making.

On 22 Feb, 18:02, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote

Never heard of anything like that, it's very interesting. I'm now
wondering whether there were ever any other similar examples,
excluding times when engineering works or something else going wrong
necessitated it (like the recent occasions when GNER terminated at FP
- I hear it was mayhem, and I guess it was similarly chaotic at Harrow
& Wealdstone when Virgin had to stop/start short there).

I can't think of other cases where a London suburban station has been used
as the terminus of a long-distance train in regular working to avoid use of
the normal terminal station.

There have of course been other 'engineering' examples, like use of Ealing
Broadway for some trains during the 1967 resignalling of Paddington (others
diverted to Marylebone or Kensington Olympia). Summer trains to the Kent
Coast or Hastings have been known to start from Elephant & Castle or New
Cross, though I think that some of them ran ecs from the terminus.

Peter


Interesting stuff. I presume the trains that terminated at Kensington
Olympia ran down from the GWML, using the now gone West London curve
that linked the GWML and NLL? Curious readers might like to know that
the West London curve got swallowed up by the now disused Eurostar
North Pole depot - however one thing I am unclear of is whether there
was just a link from the NLL to the GWML heading west, or whether
there was ever also a link that headed east towards Paddington?

Also, I'm just pondering summer specials in the south east.
Southeastern run a morning special from Victoria to Ramsgate via
Catford, Bromley South and Margate (and presumably a few other places
along the way!), though there's no special return working. I can't
think of any others that still run.