On Feb 19, 9:20*am, Mizter T wrote:
On 19 Feb, 16:38, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"John B" wrote

Euston is the only sensible destination for a north/south HSL, in
simple geography and engineering terms. A link to HS1 to allow NoL
trains (which might be viable at 350km/h) would be sensible. Maybe a
travelator to KXSP...

Exactly. A branch from Heathrow to the HSL (in the Denham area, if the
Chiltern corridor is used) would make sense (as suggested by Greengauge),
but running the HSL from Euston/St Pancras to Birmingham via Heathrow is
likely to be too slow, and certain to be too expensive, to be worthwhile..

Peter

Additionally, if space is tight at Euston then the whole station could
be rebuilt with longer platforms at the current level stretching to
buffer stops just north of Euston Road (or at least north of the
course of the Met & Circle lines) and with the station concourse being
on the next level up above the platforms. A mighty expensive project
of course, plus the main Underground concourse might well be in the
way of all this subsurface shenanigans, but that's not an insuperable
problem.

For local distribution of arrivals Euston Square station needs to be
moved. Or, Euston Square should be linked to the mainline and tube
stations by a travelator.

Adrian

Urban groups added for wider readership.

On 19 Feb, 21:10, Adrian Auer-Hudson
wrote:

On Feb 19, 9:20 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Feb, 16:38, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"John B" wrote

Euston is the only sensible destination for a north/south HSL, in
simple geography and engineering terms. A link to HS1 to allow NoL
trains (which might be viable at 350km/h) would be sensible. Maybe a
travelator to KXSP...

Exactly. A branch from Heathrow to the HSL (in the Denham area, if the
Chiltern corridor is used) would make sense (as suggested by Greengauge),
but running the HSL from Euston/St Pancras to Birmingham via Heathrow is
likely to be too slow, and certain to be too expensive, to be worthwhile.

Peter

Additionally, if space is tight at Euston then the whole station could
be rebuilt with longer platforms at the current level stretching to
buffer stops just north of Euston Road (or at least north of the
course of the Met & Circle lines) and with the station concourse being
on the next level up above the platforms. A mighty expensive project
of course, plus the main Underground concourse might well be in the
way of all this subsurface shenanigans, but that's not an insuperable
problem.

For local distribution of arrivals Euston Square station needs to be
moved. Or, Euston Square should be linked to the mainline and tube
stations by a travelator.

Adrian

Urban groups added for wider readership.


Well, if anyone on utl or misc.transport.urban-transit is reading this
then I they won't be aware of the context - which basically came from
a pretty pie-in-the-sky discussion of where a London terminus/through
station for a new British north-south high speed line would be
located. Euston appears to be the most realistic suggestion, if a new
HSL ever actually got built (and that is a very big if!). However in a
further reply to my post Peter Masson pointed out that the platforms
at Euston station as they stand could likely handle any new long
trains just fine, so my suggestion that Euston might have to be
completely rebuilt (never really intended to be that serious) would in
fact not even have to enter onto the drawing board.

Which would be just as well really, as any new high speed line has
less and less chance of ever even being considered the more
ostentatious plans for it get.

However linking up Euston Square with the rest of Euston might not be
a bad ting to aim for in the long run, as has been discussed here many
times before - and in the unlikely event that a high speed line into
Euston ever got the go ahead then it should definitely be on the
cards. In the meantime, passengers transferring between these stations
can enjoy the fresh air of the Euston Road!

On Feb 19, 2:25*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 19 Feb, 21:10, Adrian Auer-Hudson
wrote:



On Feb 19, 9:20 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Feb, 16:38, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"John B" wrote

Euston is the only sensible destination for a north/south HSL, in
simple geography and engineering terms. A link to HS1 to allow NoL
trains (which might be viable at 350km/h) would be sensible. Maybe a
travelator to KXSP...

Exactly. A branch from Heathrow to the HSL (in the Denham area, if the
Chiltern corridor is used) would make sense (as suggested by Greengauge),
but running the HSL from Euston/St Pancras to Birmingham via Heathrow is
likely to be too slow, and certain to be too expensive, to be worthwhile.

Peter

Additionally, if space is tight at Euston then the whole station could
be rebuilt with longer platforms at the current level stretching to
buffer stops just north of Euston Road (or at least north of the
course of the Met & Circle lines) and with the station concourse being
on the next level up above the platforms. A mighty expensive project
of course, plus the main Underground concourse might well be in the
way of all this subsurface shenanigans, but that's not an insuperable
problem.

For local distribution of arrivals Euston Square station needs to be
moved. *Or, Euston Square should be linked to the mainline and tube
stations by a travelator.

Adrian

Urban groups added for wider readership.

Well, if anyone on utl or misc.transport.urban-transit is reading this
then I they won't be aware of the context - which basically came from
a pretty pie-in-the-sky discussion of where a London terminus/through
station for a new British north-south high speed line would be
located. Euston appears to be the most realistic suggestion, if a new
HSL ever actually got built (and that is a very big if!). However in a
further reply to my post Peter Masson pointed out that the platforms
at Euston station as they stand could likely handle any new long
trains just fine, so my suggestion that Euston might have to be
completely rebuilt (never really intended to be that serious) would in
fact not even have to enter onto the drawing board.

Points taken.

Which would be just as well really, as any new high speed line has
less and less chance of ever even being considered the more
ostentatious plans for it get.

Sort of: Part of the attraction of HS1 was/is its breadth of vision.
Local upgrades form a small part of the overall budget. But I agree
that rebuilding Euston would be a tall order.

However linking up Euston Square with the rest of Euston might not be
a bad ting to aim for in the long run, as has been discussed here many
times before - and in the unlikely event that a high speed line into
Euston ever got the go ahead then it should definitely be on the
cards. In the meantime, passengers transferring between these stations
can enjoy the fresh air of the Euston Road!

Oh yes, all that fresh CO2. :-)

The stations on the northern half of the circle may have made sense in
the 1860s. They are inconvenient today. And, said side of the Circle
misses interchange possibilities at almost every opportunity. The
biggest omission IMHO is not having a station in front of Euston. It
would be an expensive mistake to rectify.

Adrian


Adrian

"Adrian" wrote

The stations on the northern half of the circle may have made sense in
the 1860s. They are inconvenient today. And, said side of the Circle
misses interchange possibilities at almost every opportunity. The
biggest omission IMHO is not having a station in front of Euston. It
would be an expensive mistake to rectify.

IIRC the entrance to Euston Square Circle Line station is at the west end of
the platforms, and is near enough to Warren Street LUL station as to be
considered an interchange. As the Circle Line runs under the Euston Road,
and the buffer stops at Euston are a good way short of Euston Road, a
perfect interchange would be unduly expensive. However, a much better
interchange would be achieved if the entrance to Euston Square station was
moved to the east end of the platforms (or a subsidiary entrance provided
there). Incidentally, Euston Square station was originally named, more
appropriately, Gower Street. It was only renamed in 1909 as a late reaction
to the opening of tube stations at Euston on both the Hampstead Tube and the
City & South London Railway (now the Charing Cross and Bank branches of the
Northern Line).

Peter.

Adrian wrote:

On Feb 19, 2:25pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Feb, 21:10, Adrian Auer-Hudson
wrote:


On Feb 19, 9:20 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Feb, 16:38, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"John B" wrote

Euston is the only sensible destination for a north/south HSL, in
simple geography and engineering terms. A link to HS1 to allow NoL
trains (which might be viable at 350km/h) would be sensible. Maybe a
travelator to KXSP...

Exactly. A branch from Heathrow to the HSL (in the Denham area, if the
Chiltern corridor is used) would make sense (as suggested by Greengauge),
but running the HSL from Euston/St Pancras to Birmingham via Heathrow is
likely to be too slow, and certain to be too expensive, to be worthwhile.

Peter

Additionally, if space is tight at Euston then the whole station could
be rebuilt with longer platforms at the current level stretching to
buffer stops just north of Euston Road (or at least north of the
course of the Met & Circle lines) and with the station concourse being
on the next level up above the platforms. A mighty expensive project
of course, plus the main Underground concourse might well be in the
way of all this subsurface shenanigans, but that's not an insuperable
problem.

For local distribution of arrivals Euston Square station needs to be
moved. Or, Euston Square should be linked to the mainline and tube
stations by a travelator.

Adrian

Urban groups added for wider readership.

Well, if anyone on utl or misc.transport.urban-transit is reading this
then I they won't be aware of the context - which basically came from
a pretty pie-in-the-sky discussion of where a London terminus/through
station for a new British north-south high speed line would be
located. Euston appears to be the most realistic suggestion, if a new
HSL ever actually got built (and that is a very big if!). However in a
further reply to my post Peter Masson pointed out that the platforms
at Euston station as they stand could likely handle any new long
trains just fine, so my suggestion that Euston might have to be
completely rebuilt (never really intended to be that serious) would in
fact not even have to enter onto the drawing board.

Points taken.


I didn't mean to be quite as harsh as I came across! I'm just a little
wary of being labelled as a fantasist - nothing wrong with flights of
fancy per se on usenet of course, I just like to ensure they get
appropriately flagged up!

All that said, I'm guessing that the current 60's modernist station
buildings at Euston won't last forever - indeed I would make the
(perhaps quite wrong) assumption that it wasn't aren't built to last
in quite the manner that St Pancras or Paddington was. And of course a
significant part of the logic behind the 'new' Euston of the 60's was
that it should handle parcels traffic effortlessly, hence the
expansive parcels deck high above the platforms. The parcels handling
function of Euston is now totally dead (at least I'm pretty sure it
is!).

It is this large parcels deck, floating above the platforms, that made
me think a new two level passenger railway station at Euston would be
possible - the site would appear to lend itself to such a proposition.


Which would be just as well really, as any new high speed line has
less and less chance of ever even being considered the more
ostentatious plans for it get.

Sort of: Part of the attraction of HS1 was/is its breadth of vision.
Local upgrades form a small part of the overall budget. But I agree
that rebuilding Euston would be a tall order.


I was really thinking about whether the platforms would be long enough
for a new breed of high speed trains - and the north-south high speed
line proposition has the HS2 moniker these days, as HS1 is already
with us in the form of the CTRL.


However linking up Euston Square with the rest of Euston might not be
a bad ting to aim for in the long run, as has been discussed here many
times before - and in the unlikely event that a high speed line into
Euston ever got the go ahead then it should definitely be on the
cards. In the meantime, passengers transferring between these stations
can enjoy the fresh air of the Euston Road!

Oh yes, all that fresh CO2. :-)


In terms of your lungs I think the extra CO2 is the least of your
worries! There's some tasty pollutants out there, breath in deep!


The stations on the northern half of the circle may have made sense in
the 1860s. They are inconvenient today. And, said side of the Circle
misses interchange possibilities at almost every opportunity. The
biggest omission IMHO is not having a station in front of Euston. It
would be an expensive mistake to rectify.

Adrian


Apart from at Euston and Marylebone I don't really see what's missing
with regards to interchange opportunities on the northern (Met) half
of the circle. Euston is a big omission, I'll grant you that,
Marylebone less so. The platforms at Euston Square stretch from the
entrance eastwards - i.e. towards Euston, so there have been various
proposals mooted for that new passageways are built at the east end of
the platforms to lead directly into the Euston station Underground
complex. However even if the platforms weren't moved this would, as
you say, be a mighty expensive endeavour. Perhaps this might have to
wait until Euston gets rebuilt, if indeed that ever does happen as
such.

On 19 Feb, 23:41, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Adrian" wrote

The stations on the northern half of the circle may have made sense in
the 1860s. They are inconvenient today. And, said side of the Circle
misses interchange possibilities at almost every opportunity. The
biggest omission IMHO is not having a station in front of Euston. It
would be an expensive mistake to rectify.

IIRC the entrance to Euston Square Circle Line station is at the west end of
the platforms, and is near enough to Warren Street LUL station as to be
considered an interchange. As the Circle Line runs under the Euston Road,
and the buffer stops at Euston are a good way short of Euston Road, a
perfect interchange would be unduly expensive. However, a much better
interchange would be achieved if the entrance to Euston Square station was
moved to the east end of the platforms (or a subsidiary entrance provided
there). Incidentally, Euston Square station was originally named, more
appropriately, Gower Street. It was only renamed in 1909 as a late reaction
to the opening of tube stations at Euston on both the Hampstead Tube and the
City & South London Railway (now the Charing Cross and Bank branches of the
Northern Line).

Peter.

Thanks for the history Peter.

Wikipedia led me to this entry on alwaystouchout about Network Rail's
plans o totally redevelop Euston, which would include a direct subway
link to the Euston Square platforms:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/125

It vaguely rings a bell but that's all, I can't say I've heard
anything about these plans recently. There's a link to a relevant page
on the website of construction economists Franklin + Andrews. One gets
the impression that this is all very much at the early stages of
exploration.

However looking the other way to Warren Street did make me think of a
possible lost opportunity here. The major new University College
Hospital (UCH) building on the Euston Road opened in 2005 after
several years of construction - I'm wondering whether it might have
been possible to carve out a bit of the basement so as to provide a
subway from Euston Square all the way to Warren Street station.
Without major rebuilding at Euston Square it wouldn't have been
possible to keep this subway within the fare-paid zone (i.e.
interchanging passengers would have to pass out and then back in
through gates), and to be honest I can't quite recall whether the
subterranean layout at Warren Street would be remotely conducive to
such an endeavour.

Plus there's the question of what other below surface obstructions
there might be, along with the quite understandable reluctance of the
hospital to give up space in their basement for this to happen, along
with many other questions as to whether this would have been remotely
feasible.

And of course it ignores the rather crucial fact that the new UCH
building has already been built!

In message
, at
14:25:31 on Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Mizter T remarked:
Well, if anyone on utl or misc.transport.urban-transit is reading this
then I they won't be aware of the context - which basically came from
a pretty pie-in-the-sky discussion of where a London terminus/through
station for a new British north-south high speed line would be
located. Euston appears to be the most realistic suggestion, if a new
HSL ever actually got built

Given that the tracks to Euston divert almost literally half way round
northern London (starting let's say in the Wembley area) I have no idea
why it's such an "obvious" place to terminate a new line.
--
Roland Perry

Am Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:57:13 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

Without major rebuilding at Euston Square it wouldn't have been
possible to keep this subway within the fare-paid zone (i.e.
interchanging passengers would have to pass out and then back in
through gates),

get rid of the gates, and that problem isn't any any more. :-))


Cheers,
L.W.

On 20 Feb, 09:23, "Lüko Willms" wrote:
Am Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:57:13 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

Without major rebuilding at Euston Square it wouldn't have been
possible to keep this subway within the fare-paid zone (i.e.
interchanging passengers would have to pass out and then back in
through gates),

get rid of the gates, and that problem isn't any any more. :-))


Yeah, everyone will just travel for free!

Am Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:37:38 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

get rid of the gates, and that problem isn't any any more. :-))

Yeah, everyone will just travel for free!

No, check it out in Berlin or Hamburg or Munich ... that can be very
costly.

Ticket gates are to public transport what DRM (Digital Rights
Management) is to digital music and video.


Cheers,
L.W.