Weekly and longer Travelcards can be loaded onto your card, but you
still have to pay cash. Day Travelcards on Oyster don't exist.

Out of interest, why don't they exist? Surely the system could accomodate
it?

LEWIS

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:04:36 +0000, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:45:25 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote this gibberish:

On 20 Feb, 20:10, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:
Is there any difference between national rail oyster PAYG routes and
london overground routes as far as touching in and out is concerned?

No.

cool

Specifically, "London Overground" is just one company that operates
"National Rail" trains.

On Feb 21, 1:52*am, "Lew 1"
wrote:
Weekly and longer Travelcards *can be loaded onto your card, but you
still have to pay cash. Day Travelcards on Oyster don't exist.

Out of interest, why don't they exist? Surely the system could accomodate
it?

LEWIS

Because TfL wants daily capping to make day travelcards redundant.
Trouble is, all the rules are operating as if NR accepts PAYG, even
though that wished-for situation is years away.

On 21 Feb, 05:22, James Farrar wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:04:36 +0000, MarkVarley - MVP

wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:45:25 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote this gibberish:

On 20 Feb, 20:10, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:
Is there any difference between national rail oyster PAYG routes and
london overground routes as far as touching in and out is concerned?

No.

cool

Specifically, "London Overground" is just one company that operates
"National Rail" trains.


Yes, but...

In terms of passenger facing communications TfL does refer to "London
Overground" separately from "National Rail" services - passengers who
don't know the story behind all this are thus quite entitled to think
of London Overground as being a different beast from National Rail.

I would suggest that the original poster doesn't worry about all the
details that I'm about to go into!


In terms of the arrangements London Overground is quite different from
other National Rail Train Operating Companies* - the Department for
Transport (DfT) has ceded responsibility for running the service to
TfL, and TfL has subsequently appointed a concessionaire (i.e.
operator) to run the day to day operations. Whether TfL could ever
have operated it all directly through a public-sector subsidiary
company I don't know, I suspect the deal between TfL and the DfT
doesn't allow for this though. Of course TfL has transferred
management of several stations that are shared with the Bakerloo line
over to London Underground Ltd. (LUL), so in a sense they has brought
them into direct public-sector operation.

And when the ELLX opens, the route from Dalston down to New Cross/ New
Cross Gate will not be part of the 'National Rail network' as such -
it will be (indeed already is) owned by TfL. AIUI ownership of this
stretch is actually going to stay vested in LUL, and LUL will remain
as the named "infrastructure controller" (which is an important legal
term for reasons I'm not clear about), though this is surely simply
for the sake of convenience apart from anything else - there really
isn't much point in TfL shuffling the legal ownership around between
its various subsidiary companies because after all it owns them all!


-----
* The London Overground arrangement has strong similarities to the
Merseyrail arrangement on Merseyside, where the Merseytravel PTA is
responsible for arranging a concessionaire to operate train services
on the Northern and Wirral lines there. However I understand that
under the first concession agreement the Merseytravel PTA took the
revenue risk, whilst under the current concession agreement the
concessionaire takes the revenue risk - the current concessionaire
being a Serco/NedRailways joint venture. Meanwhile on London
Overground the revenue risk is borne by TfL alone, not by the
concessionaire LOROL.

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 21, 1:52 am, "Lew 1"
wrote:
Weekly and longer Travelcards can be loaded onto your card, but you
still have to pay cash. Day Travelcards on Oyster don't exist.

Out of interest, why don't they exist? Surely the system could accomodate
it?

LEWIS

Because TfL wants daily capping to make day travelcards redundant.
Trouble is, all the rules are operating as if NR accepts PAYG, even
though that wished-for situation is years away.

------------------------------------------

I think you've misspelt, decades

tim

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:26:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote this gibberish:

On 21 Feb, 05:22, James Farrar wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:04:36 +0000, MarkVarley - MVP

wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:45:25 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote this gibberish:

On 20 Feb, 20:10, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:
Is there any difference between national rail oyster PAYG routes and
london overground routes as far as touching in and out is concerned?

No.

cool

Specifically, "London Overground" is just one company that operates
"National Rail" trains.


Yes, but...

In terms of passenger facing communications TfL does refer to "London
Overground" separately from "National Rail" services - passengers who
don't know the story behind all this are thus quite entitled to think
of London Overground as being a different beast from National Rail.

snipped

As someone who knows buggerall about who runs what and what is
technically what I see 'London Overground' as an oyster payg rail
service like the underground and 'national rail' as 'need to buy a
ticket'.


--
Mark.
www.MarkVarleyPhoto.co.uk

On 21 Feb, 17:36, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:26:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote this gibberish:

On 21 Feb, 05:22, James Farrar wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:04:36 +0000, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:45:25 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote this gibberish:

On 20 Feb, 20:10, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:
Is there any difference between national rail oyster PAYG routes and
london overground routes as far as touching in and out is concerned?

No.

cool

Specifically, "London Overground" is just one company that operates
"National Rail" trains.

Yes, but...

In terms of passenger facing communications TfL does refer to "London
Overground" separately from "National Rail" services - passengers who
don't know the story behind all this are thus quite entitled to think
of London Overground as being a different beast from National Rail.

snipped

As someone who knows buggerall about who runs what and what is
technically what I see 'London Overground' as an oyster payg rail
service like the underground and 'national rail' as 'need to buy a
ticket'.


Quite - and that was exactly the point I was trying to make in
response to James Farrar!

Of course, the world isn't ever quite that simple! As I pointed out
earlier there are a limited number of National Rail routes on which
you can use Oyster PAYG - however since January several have been
added (including all the Chiltern and c2c routes within London plus
some of the 'one' railway routes) and more are in the pipeline.
Unfortunately this is a slow process, and is progressing on a TOC by
TOC* basis.

Anyway, for full information on which National Rail routes you can
currently use Oyster PAYG on, including a link to a map, go to this
TfL webpage:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

One day, eventually, it will be possible to use it on all National
Rail routes in London.

-----
* TOC = Train Operating Company

"tim (not at home)" wrote in message
...

"MIG" wrote in message

Because TfL wants daily capping to make day travelcards redundant.
Trouble is, all the rules are operating as if NR accepts PAYG, even
though that wished-for situation is years away.

I think you've misspelt, decades

Er.. January 2009 within the London Fare zonal area.

As discussed regularly, PAYG is unlikely to ever work on a national basis,
due to the balance required for long distance travel.

Paul S

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
news

"tim (not at home)" wrote in message
...

"MIG" wrote in message

Because TfL wants daily capping to make day travelcards redundant.
Trouble is, all the rules are operating as if NR accepts PAYG, even
though that wished-for situation is years away.

I think you've misspelt, decades

Er.. January 2009 within the London Fare zonal area.

I don't believe it.

Some of the TOC's haven't been re-let since Ken tried to persuade them to
introduce it voluntarily and they have no obligation to even start before
then

tim

On 21 Feb, 19:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"tim (not at home)" wrote:

"MIG" wrote in message
Because TfL wants daily capping to make day travelcards redundant.
Trouble is, all the rules are operating as if NR accepts PAYG, even
though that wished-for situation is years away.
I think you've misspelt, decades

Er.. January 2009 within the London Fare zonal area.


That's what TfL is hoping for, which doesn't mean it is going to
happen. Mr Thant, on his weblog entry that summarises the February TfL
board meeting, describes the roll out of Oyster PAYG as being
"pencilled in for next January"...
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...ellaneous.html

Some of the TOCs might thus still be wielding their erasers.


In fact, let's take a look at what the Board papers actually say on
this matter - in the Transport Commissioner's Report to the Board,
under the 'London Rail' section it says this:

---quote---
Oyster on National Rail
[...]
Discussions with the passenger train operator companies (TOCS)
continue in the effort to reach contractual agreement to extend Oyster
PAYG acceptance across the remainder of the suburban rail network in
London. Most of north London is now included but PAYG only applies to
five Network Rail stations south of the Thames (Elephant & Castle,
London Bridge on Thameslink and Richmond, Kew Gardens and Clapham
Junction on London Overground), see network plan below. The programme
of installation is expected to take 12 months to complete with a
target implementation date of January 2009.
---/quote---


That can be found on page 15 of this large PDF document (marked as
page 6 of 15 of the Commisioner's Report):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...a-08-02-06.pdf


Oyster PAYG will happen on National Rail in London, I'm sure of that -
however we're into the endgame here, with the TOCs and TfL tussling
over the contractual details - in other words the money! Who's going
to pay for things, who's going to get paid what, etc etc.