asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:

Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...

I don't know about some of the more esoteric other railcards, but with a
Young Persons' Railcard I believe the minimum fare for a Travelcard is
GBP 4.80 or something similar. So TfL's scheme offers savings otherwise
unavailable.
--
Michael Hoffman

On Feb 24, 5:07*pm, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:
Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. *Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...

Does a zone 1 - 2 day travelcard with railcard discount cost less than
a day bus pass at £3.60? (That would be the cheapest day travelcard
one could get.)

On Feb 24, 5:33*pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:

Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. *Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...

I don't know about some of the more esoteric other railcards, but with a
Young Persons' Railcard I believe the minimum fare for a Travelcard is
GBP 4.80 or something similar. So TfL's scheme offers savings otherwise
unavailable.

For less of a service. The "tube cap" is NOT a travelcard.

MIG wrote:
On Feb 24, 5:33 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:
Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).
But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...
I don't know about some of the more esoteric other railcards, but with a
Young Persons' Railcard I believe the minimum fare for a Travelcard is
GBP 4.80 or something similar. So TfL's scheme offers savings otherwise
unavailable.

For less of a service. The "tube cap" is NOT a travelcard.

What I'm saying is that there is not a Travelcard available for GBP 3.30
to Y-P railcard users that would let you use the tube in zones 2-6.
--
Michael Hoffman

On 24 Feb, 19:40, MIG wrote:
Does a zone 1 - 2 day travelcard with railcard discount cost less than
a day bus pass at £3.60? *(That would be the cheapest day travelcard
one could get.)

No such thing. Only the all zones ticket is available with a Railcard
discount.

(well it's more complicated than that - there's a minimum fare rule
that means discount fewer-zone tickets make no sense, but I'm not
absolutely certain you can't buy one anyway)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

In article
,
MIG wrote:

The issue here though is that the new railcard discount has created an
anomaly where the tube + bus cap is lower than the bus only cap.

I am not convinced of that, or do you know it to have happened?

I was referring to the prices of the two caps, with the bus only one
being £3 while the bus + tube one is £2.80. I have no experience of
what actually happens in applying these which is why I am asking the
question.

I am assuming that a national railcard discount will not be applied to
bus only travel, otherwise the situation is very simple as the bus only
cap would never be reached. But even if it does work that way, it is
still an anomalous situation that the more inclusive cap is lower than
the more restricted one.

The only similar situation I can think of would be the New Deal price
capping, but that applies to all travel rather than just being a cap.

It would just seem strange to give a National Rail railcard discount on
an all-day bus ticket, which would effectively be the case if that cap
applied without any form of train travel. Presumably the way the
revenue is shared out is different for a travelcard and tube cap than it
is for bus only travel and so this way would see London Buses lose out
to the Underground and Oyster accepting rail companies.

Granted it could also work out that way if someone bought a travelcard
and only travelled on buses, but that sort of naivete must be pretty
uncommon.

That may be a bit wishful. Oyster PAYG capping is not equivalent to a
travelcard, it's just meant to be an alternative to it.

There's no more reason to expect a bus fare reduction on PAYG, just
because a reduction applies to a travelcard, than there is to expect
to use PAYG on NR, just because you can use NR with a travelcard.

I am not sure what you point is? Bus travel is expected to be included
under the normal cap because it is explicitly stated as such in the
fares guide.

The new cap with a loaded railcard is not given as a separate type of
fare but that "your off-peak Oyster daily price cap will be 34% lower
than the equivalent adult-rate cap" (to quote the web page).

Nowhere does it say that different rules apply if you take advantage of
this cap, or that bus travel is specifically not included. So I would
say there is far more reason to expect bus travel to be included than
not. If it was excluded then even if you only wanted to catch one bus
it would make it cheaper to buy a discounted travelcard.

If there is one thing that is clear from this thread though, it is that
nothing is clear!

Michael.

On Feb 24, 8:12*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 24 Feb, 19:40, MIG wrote:

Does a zone 1 - 2 day travelcard with railcard discount cost less than
a day bus pass at £3.60? *(That would be the cheapest day travelcard
one could get.)

No such thing. Only the all zones ticket is available with a Railcard
discount.

(well it's more complicated than that - there's a minimum fare rule
that means discount fewer-zone tickets make no sense, but I'm not
absolutely certain you can't buy one anyway)

So even less reason why anyone would buy one with or without a
discount and then only use buses (£3.60 for bus pass or £3 PAYG cap),
which is what I was getting at.

On Feb 24, 8:00*pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Feb 24, 5:33 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:
Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. *Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).
But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...
I don't know about some of the more esoteric other railcards, but with a
Young Persons' Railcard I believe the minimum fare for a Travelcard is
GBP 4.80 or something similar. So TfL's scheme offers savings otherwise
unavailable.

For less of a service. The "tube cap" is NOT a travelcard.

What I'm saying is that there is not a Travelcard available for GBP 3.30
to Y-P railcard users that would let you use the tube in zones 2-6.


There was a problem with terminology in a previous post. Oyster PAYG
offers savings on different products, rather than greater savings on
the same product, is what I meant.

On Feb 24, 8:28*pm, Michael wrote:
In article
,

*MIG wrote:
The issue here though is that the new railcard discount has created an
anomaly where the tube + bus cap is lower than the bus only cap.

I am not convinced of that, or do you know it to have happened?

I was referring to the prices of the two caps, with the bus only one
being £3 while the bus + tube one is £2.80. *I have no experience of
what actually happens in applying these which is why I am asking the
question.

I am assuming that a national railcard discount will not be applied to
bus only travel, otherwise the situation is very simple as the bus only
cap would never be reached. *But even if it does work that way, it is
still an anomalous situation that the more inclusive cap is lower than
the more restricted one.

This is what I am questioning. Do you know it to be the case, ie have
you reached the cap of £2.80 on the Underground and then travelled on
a bus for free?


The only similar situation I can think of would be the New Deal price
capping, but that applies to all travel rather than just being a cap.

It would just seem strange to give a National Rail railcard discount on
an all-day bus ticket, which would effectively be the case if that cap
applied without any form of train travel. *Presumably the way the
revenue is shared out is different for a travelcard and tube cap than it
is for bus only travel and so this way would see London Buses lose out
to the Underground and Oyster accepting rail companies.

Granted it could also work out that way if someone bought a travelcard
and only travelled on buses, but that sort of naivete must be pretty
uncommon.

That may be a bit wishful. *Oyster PAYG capping is not equivalent to a
travelcard, it's just meant to be an alternative to it.

There's no more reason to expect a bus fare reduction on PAYG, just
because a reduction applies to a travelcard, than there is to expect
to use PAYG on NR, just because you can use NR with a travelcard.

I am not sure what you point is? *Bus travel is expected to be included
under the normal cap because it is explicitly stated as such in the
fares guide.

The new cap with a loaded railcard is not given as a separate type of
fare but that "your off-peak Oyster daily price cap will be 34% lower
than the equivalent adult-rate cap" (to quote the web page).

Nowhere does it say that different rules apply if you take advantage of
this cap, or that bus travel is specifically not included. *So I would
say there is far more reason to expect bus travel to be included than
not. *If it was excluded then even if you only wanted to catch one bus
it would make it cheaper to buy a discounted travelcard.

If there is one thing that is clear from this thread though, it is that
nothing is clear!

The problem is the use of terminology. An Oyster PAYG cap is not a
travelcard. You can't assume that anything that applies to
travelcards applies to capped PAYG.

Your argument appeared to be that because you get a discount on
certain travelcards with the railcard, therefore you get the same
discount on capped PAYG (eg buses).

That's equivalent to saying that because you can use National Rail
with a travelcard, you can use National Rail with PAYG.

In the latter case it isn't true, and I don't think it's safe to
assume that the former is true, unless you've done it.

In article
,
MIG wrote:

This is what I am questioning. Do you know it to be the case, ie have
you reached the cap of £2.80 on the Underground and then travelled on
a bus for free?

No, but I am not sure what the relevance would be. I have never made
similar journeys with regards the £4.30 non-discounted cap either, but
that does not make me doubt that it applies either.

Besides, if I had tested out the situation I was asking about I would
know the answer and not have needed to come on here and ask the question!

Your argument appeared to be that because you get a discount on
certain travelcards with the railcard, therefore you get the same
discount on capped PAYG (eg buses).

I am not sure how you got that impression, but that has never been my
argument. At no point have I ever thought or suggested that the
discounted price cap is the same as, or carries the same benefits as, a
Travelcard.

My assumption is only that the railcard discounted Oyster tube cap
applies to the same forms of transport and routes as the equivalent
non-discounted Oyster tube cap. No more, and more importantly no less.

That's equivalent to saying that because you can use National Rail
with a travelcard, you can use National Rail with PAYG.

Which is why I never said anything of the sort. I really am sorry if I
was not clear enough and somehow confused you about what I was saying.
But I am really not sure what I said wrong causing you to think I was
saying that when no one else came to that opinion.

I only made mention of Travelcards to use as an analogy regarding bus
travel being included. It would make no sense to me to claim that the
Oyster cap would not include bus travel because it was bought with a
railcard discount when the same logic would also mean a railcard
discounted Travelcard should not include bus travel either. Yet it does.

Maybe I was just over-explaining myself by doing so? In hindsight I
certainly regret making any reference to it.

The basis for believing that bus travel is included under the discounted
cap though is not that analogy but that it is a discounted version of
the tube cap. Not a separate product nor one with any special
exemptions on bus travel.

The only reason I would have to doubt its inclusion is to assume that
TfL were incompetent in their literature and forgot to make any
reference to that difference between the discounted and non-discounted
versions. Possibly naively, but I will give them a bit more credit than
that.

But just to be clear, forget any reference I have made to Travelcards as
they are nothing to do with my question. Basically all I am asking is
what happens if the first four journeys are made by bus*.

I do admit though that I did make the assumption, without any factual
basis, that the discounted cap would not be applied to bus travel only.

Michael.

* Although originally I said three journeys as I forgot the Oyster fare
had gone down to 90p last year.