Hi,

Can someone confirm to me what would happen in the following situation
regarding the new price cap for an Oyster card with a loaded National
Rail railcard:

On one day a person makes four bus journeys and a tube journey between
zones 3 and 4, all of which begin after 9:30am.

Would that be charged at the bus price cap (£3) plus the tube fare (£1),
or would the zone 2-6 off peak (£2.80) Tube cap apply to cover
everything?

I would assume the cheaper fare would apply as it is theoretically a
Travelcard replacement. I am also assuming that the cap applies when
the discounted rate is met, rather than the normal cap level and the
price then discounted.

But even if the tube cap was not applied, what would then happen if
instead three such tube journeys were made? At £3 this would reach the
£2.80 cap so the bus journeys would then not be charged separately.

In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three).
Surely that cannot be right? Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

Thanks,

Michael.

On 23 Feb, 14:25, Michael wrote:
In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three). *
Surely that cannot be right? *Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

I'd expect the bus cap effectively becomes £2.80, but I've no idea if
that's the case.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:25:10 +0000, Michael wrote:

Hi,

Can someone confirm to me what would happen in the following situation
regarding the new price cap for an Oyster card with a loaded National
Rail railcard:

On one day a person makes four bus journeys and a tube journey between
zones 3 and 4, all of which begin after 9:30am.

Would that be charged at the bus price cap (£3) plus the tube fare (£1),
or would the zone 2-6 off peak (£2.80) Tube cap apply to cover
everything?

I would assume the cheaper fare would apply as it is theoretically a
Travelcard replacement. I am also assuming that the cap applies when
the discounted rate is met, rather than the normal cap level and the
price then discounted.

But even if the tube cap was not applied, what would then happen if
instead three such tube journeys were made? At £3 this would reach the
£2.80 cap so the bus journeys would then not be charged separately.

In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three).
Surely that cannot be right? Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

Don't know for certain but I think the logic is like this.

If you undertook four bus journey they'd be £3.60 in total but capped to
£3. If you then undertook the tube journey as described then if you
also have the Railcard discount activated then the total cap should
reduce to £2.80. I agree it seems odd if you make the bus trips first
then the bus one day cap will be applied first until such time as
another mode is added that might trigger a different product /
geographic gap.

Your logic in the second example of 3 tube rides and then the bus is
correct from my understanding of how the "lowest cost" capping logic
works.

While I agree it might seem illogical the fact is that you get no
Railcard discount for just bus travel but as soon as you include tube or
rail then a lower cap may be activated (if off peak and outside zone 1).

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 23 Feb, 18:03, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:25:10 +0000, Michael wrote:
Hi,

Can someone confirm to me what would happen in the following situation
regarding the new price cap for an Oyster card with a loaded National
Rail railcard:

On one day a person makes four bus journeys and a tube journey between
zones 3 and 4, all of which begin after 9:30am.

Would that be charged at the bus price cap (£3) plus the tube fare (£1),
or would the zone 2-6 off peak (£2.80) Tube cap apply to cover
everything?

I would assume the cheaper fare would apply as it is theoretically a
Travelcard replacement. *I am also assuming that the cap applies when
the discounted rate is met, rather than the normal cap level and the
price then discounted.

But even if the tube cap was not applied, what would then happen if
instead three such tube journeys were made? *At £3 this would reach the
£2.80 cap so the bus journeys would then not be charged separately.

In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three). *
Surely that cannot be right? *Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

Don't know for certain but I think the logic is like this.

If you undertook four bus journey they'd be £3.60 in total but capped to
£3. *If you then undertook the tube journey as described then if you
also have the Railcard discount activated then the total cap should
reduce to £2.80. *I agree it seems odd if you make the bus trips first
then the bus one day cap will be applied first until such time as
another mode is added that might trigger a different product /
geographic gap.

Your logic in the second example of 3 tube rides and then the bus is
correct from my understanding of how the "lowest cost" capping logic
works.

While I agree it might seem illogical the fact is that you get no
Railcard discount for just bus travel but as soon as you include tube or
rail then a lower cap may be activated (if off peak and outside zone 1).

--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Surely the cap applies at £3 and the lower cap does not impact (i.e.
the tube journey doesn't trigger a refund of 20p). So 4 buses and a
tube journey should be more expensive than a tube journey and 4 buses
in the instance mentioned.

In the same way, my understanding is that...

If you travel from Clapham Junction to Watford Junction via Euston off-
peak, you are charged £1.50 for Clapham Junction to Euston LUL gates,
then 50p to travel from Euston to Watford Junction to make up the £2
fare. I have made this journey.

If you travel from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction to Watford
Junction via Euston off-peak, you are charged £3.50 to travel from
Watford Junction to Euston, then nothing for the onward journey. As
far as I understand, you don't get refunded £1.50 for making the extra
journey and the overall cost is £3.50.

Is this right?


Jonathan

On Feb 23, 9:33*pm, wrote:
On 23 Feb, 18:03, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:25:10 +0000, Michael wrote:
Hi,

Can someone confirm to me what would happen in the following situation
regarding the new price cap for an Oyster card with a loaded National
Rail railcard:

On one day a person makes four bus journeys and a tube journey between
zones 3 and 4, all of which begin after 9:30am.

Would that be charged at the bus price cap (£3) plus the tube fare (£1),
or would the zone 2-6 off peak (£2.80) Tube cap apply to cover
everything?

I would assume the cheaper fare would apply as it is theoretically a
Travelcard replacement. *I am also assuming that the cap applies when
the discounted rate is met, rather than the normal cap level and the
price then discounted.

But even if the tube cap was not applied, what would then happen if
instead three such tube journeys were made? *At £3 this would reach the
£2.80 cap so the bus journeys would then not be charged separately.

In either situation though, and the reason for my confusion, the fare
for the bus travel is reduced by adding a tube journey (or three). *
Surely that cannot be right? *Granted 20p is not that much to quibble
over for it not to be worth it in practice, but in theory it would mean
you can save money by adding gratuitous tube journeys to your day.

Don't know for certain but I think the logic is like this.

If you undertook four bus journey they'd be £3.60 in total but capped to
£3. *If you then undertook the tube journey as described then if you
also have the Railcard discount activated then the total cap should
reduce to £2.80. *I agree it seems odd if you make the bus trips first
then the bus one day cap will be applied first until such time as
another mode is added that might trigger a different product /
geographic gap.

Your logic in the second example of 3 tube rides and then the bus is
correct from my understanding of how the "lowest cost" capping logic
works.

While I agree it might seem illogical the fact is that you get no
Railcard discount for just bus travel but as soon as you include tube or
rail then a lower cap may be activated (if off peak and outside zone 1).

--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Surely the cap applies at £3 and the lower cap does not impact (i.e.
the tube journey doesn't trigger a refund of 20p). *So 4 buses and a
tube journey should be more expensive than a tube journey and 4 buses
in the instance mentioned.

Why wouldn't the latter still result in paying £3? There seems to be
an implication that once any cap is reached, there can be no more
charge, but that would imply that you could reach the zone 1 - 2 cap
and then travel for free to zone 6, which is not the case.

The issue must be that the railcard isn't valid on buses, so if you
use buses in addition, why shouldn't the higher cap apply?




In the same way, my understanding is that...

If you travel from Clapham Junction to Watford Junction via Euston off-
peak, you are charged £1.50 for Clapham Junction to Euston LUL gates,
then 50p to travel from Euston to Watford Junction to make up the £2
fare. *I have made this journey.

If you travel from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction to Watford
Junction via Euston off-peak, you are charged £3.50 to travel from
Watford Junction to Euston, then nothing for the onward journey. *As
far as I understand, you don't get refunded £1.50 for making the extra
journey and the overall cost is £3.50.

Is this right?

Jonathan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In article ,
Paul Corfield wrote:

Don't know for certain but I think the logic is like this.

If you undertook four bus journey they'd be £3.60 in total but capped to
£3. If you then undertook the tube journey as described then if you
also have the Railcard discount activated then the total cap should
reduce to £2.80. I agree it seems odd if you make the bus trips first
then the bus one day cap will be applied first until such time as
another mode is added that might trigger a different product /
geographic gap.

That was my thinking. I am not sure if it is something that was never
noticed, or just considered an anomaly not worth worrying about. For
the sake of saving 20p I cannot see many people going to the time and
effort of adding unnecessary train journeys just to gain this extra
benefit. Let alone the limited circumstances in which it applies - no
zone 1, off peak only, with relevant railcard.

Thanks,

Michael.

MIG wrote:
The issue must be that the railcard isn't valid on buses, so if you
use buses in addition, why shouldn't the higher cap apply?

That's an interesting idea - maybe the £2.80 cap only applies to tube
journeys, and if you use a bus you have to pay 20p more. And if you
just use buses, the £3 applies as normal. That'd certainly make more
sense than the cap jumping backwards.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

In article
,
MIG wrote:

Why wouldn't the latter still result in paying £3? There seems to be
an implication that once any cap is reached, there can be no more
charge, but that would imply that you could reach the zone 1 - 2 cap
and then travel for free to zone 6, which is not the case.

It is the opposite assumption, that despite one cap being reach (the bus
cap) that it can still be converted to come under another cap
(Tube/DLR/Overground) when there are competing caps that could be
applied, which whichever combination works out cheaper winning.

For example if you travel out of zone from the ones at which you have
already been capped then the system will compare the costs of existing
cap + single journey to the cap which covers all the zones you have now
travelled in, and the cheaper of the two being applied.

The issue here though is that the new railcard discount has created an
anomaly where the tube + bus cap is lower than the bus only cap.

The issue must be that the railcard isn't valid on buses, so if you
use buses in addition, why shouldn't the higher cap apply?

Because although you cannot use a railcard on buses directly, you can
use one to buy a travelcard at a reduced fare, which obviously includes
bus travel. As the Tube/DLR/Overground cap limit is the Oyster
alternative to a Travelcard it covers the same forms of transport. (Of
course excluding the non-Oyster NR services.)

Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

Michael.

On Feb 24, 10:40*am, Michael wrote:
In article
,

*MIG wrote:
Why wouldn't the latter still result in paying £3? *There seems to be
an implication that once any cap is reached, there can be no more
charge, but that would imply that you could reach the zone 1 - 2 cap
and then travel for free to zone 6, which is not the case.

It is the opposite assumption, that despite one cap being reach (the bus
cap) that it can still be converted to come under another cap
(Tube/DLR/Overground) when there are competing caps that could be
applied, which whichever combination works out cheaper winning.

For example if you travel out of zone from the ones at which you have *
already been capped then the system will compare the costs of existing
cap + single journey to the cap which covers all the zones you have now
travelled in, and the cheaper of the two being applied.

In such a case, there is never any need for the fare jumping
backwards, and the order of journeys doesn't make any difference.

I'm pretty sure that in any situation where a cap is reached or
subsequently broken, there is never any need for Oyster to do anything
other than add all or part of the single fare most recently undertaken
(I'd need to do a few calculations to prove that, but it just seems
right).



The issue here though is that the new railcard discount has created an
anomaly where the tube + bus cap is lower than the bus only cap.

I am not convinced of that, or do you know it to have happened?


The issue must be that the railcard isn't valid on buses, so if you
use buses in addition, why shouldn't the higher cap apply?

Because although you cannot use a railcard on buses directly, you can
use one to buy a travelcard at a reduced fare, which obviously includes
bus travel. *As the Tube/DLR/Overground cap limit is the Oyster
alternative to a Travelcard it covers the same forms of transport. *(Of
course excluding the non-Oyster NR services.)

That may be a bit wishful. Oyster PAYG capping is not equivalent to a
travelcard, it's just meant to be an alternative to it.

There's no more reason to expect a bus fare reduction on PAYG, just
because a reduction applies to a travelcard, than there is to expect
to use PAYG on NR, just because you can use NR with a travelcard.



Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. *Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

Michael.

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:40:15 +0000, Michael wrote:

Which is why I reckon if you only travel by bus the normal bus cap would
be applied, rather than the lower railcard discounted one. Because you
cannot get a railcard discount on an all-day bus ticket (the bus cap)
but you can on a travelcard (the tube cap).

But you can buy the Travelcard with railcard discount, then use it
exclusively on buses, without going on the Tube...