Just read the excellent London Connections Blog http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
which links to a the minutes of a Londontravelwatch meeting on changes
to Oyster Fares and London Overground. There is going to be some
"correction" of fares especially as there are many anomalies on the
Richmond - Stratford line.
This weekend I was involved in two interesting journeys which may
unravel some mysteries wrt Oyster Fares / Oyster PAYG

On Friday I undertook a journey from South Ruislip to Snaresbrook. My
Oyster has the YP-RC cap put onto it and as I was going to be
travelling exclusively in z2-6 my fare was going to be capped at
£2.80. There was £1.00 already on it so I put in another £2.00 to make
a sum total of £3.00.
South Ruislip - West Ruislip ( Central Line) , £1.00 deducted ,
£2.00 remaining.
Ruislip - Finchley Road (Piccadilly Line) , £1.80 deducted, £0.20
remaining. So a total of £2.80 had been deducted - the z2-6 cap with
YPRC.
I needed to get the London Overground from Finchley Road and Frognal
to Stratford ( changing there for Snaresbrook) so as to avoid
travelling through zone 1 and to get the benefits of the £2.80 cap.
There was now just £0.20 on my cap and the Oyster pads at Finchley Rd
and Frognal came up with error as I touched in. I had wrongfully
assumed that as I had already been deducted £2.80 that I could now
roam freely through z2-6. Wrong ! I had to put in another £1.00 to
bring the balance up to £1.20 to travel further. The Oyster pad would
only work if there was the minimum oyster fare amount on the card i.e
£1.00. Thankfully, when I exited at Snaresbrook I was not charged for
the journey and my balance remained at £1.20. Even though I had
reached my cap I still had to have a minimum about of at least £1.00
on my card to continue my journey from Finchley Road and Frognal. I
had a heated discussion at Finchley Rd + Frognal with the LO ticket
clerk. She refused to acknowledge the existence of the z2-6 YP-RC cap
of £2.80. Admittedly LO have recruited many new staff for the stations
on the line but it was a repeated theme over the weekend that they
have been inadequately trained and clearly there has been a "rush job"
to get ticket clerks in place.

On Saturday I needed to go from Ruislip to Gospel Oak. The fare for
this according to the TFL Fare Finder is £1.00. I still had £1.20 on
my card from the day before so the fare for the journey should be
covered. Just as a precaution I asked a member of staff at Ruislip
that I needed to touch out of Finchley Rd and touch in again at
Finchley Rd + Frog, so did not want to be charged twice. I also
mentioned going the Zone 1 route via Kings Cross - Highbury +
Islington. He said that I was not allowed to use the z1 route for the
£1.00 fare. He advised me to check with the barrier guards at Finchley
Rd regarding changing for the LO at Finchley Rd + Frognal.
I got off the tube at Harrow on the Hill and explained my dilemma to
the ticket clerk who said that I would be charged twice for the
journey and had no idea how to solve the problem but advised to see
staff at Finchley Rd. Again he repeated I was not allowed to travel
through Zone 1. But I guess as I only started off with £1.00 on my
card and if an inspector had caught me in Zone 1 I would have been
penalised. But If I had £2.00 or more on my card I could have gone
through z1, be charged the £1 fare for the journey and the inspector
could have been none the wiser !
I explained the situation to the barrier staff at Finchley Rd and they
kindly let me through without touching out. I asked the ticket clerk
at Finchley Rd and he told me that even if I touched out at
Finchley Rd, touched in at Finchley Rd + Frognal and touched out at
Gospel Oak I should only get charged £1.00 for the whole Ruislip -
Gospel Oak journey. So conflicting solutions from ticket staff. I was
allowed out of Finchley Rd tube without touching and nor did I touch
in at Finchley Rd + Frognal. Finally touched out at Gospel Oak and
got deducted the correct fare of £1.00 for the Ruislip - Gospel Oak
journey. Ii had the same problem on the return journey.
Ticket staff were themselves perplexed by the fares and blamed the
fact it was a "new system" and they themselves have just started
working here and cannot help. They again advised to touch in at Gospel
Oak but not touch out at Finchley Rd + Frognal and to see barrier
staff at Finchley Rd. Barrier staff at Finchley Rd checked my card
to see that I had indeed boarded at Gospel Oak and let me through
the barriers without touching in. I touched out at Ruislip and got
charged the correct fare , £1.00, for the Gospel Oak - Ruislip
journey.
What I discovered over this weekend was :
Even though you have reached your Oyster Cap for the day you still
need a minimum amount of funds on your card to travel. This minimum
amount is dependent on what station you touch in at and what the
minimum fare from that station is at that time of the day.
I am still to be convinced that Finchley Rd / Finchley Rd + Frognal
is a valid interchange. Staff at West Ruislip , Ruislip and Harrow-on-
the-Hill say that I will get charged twice for the Ruislip-Gospel Oak
journey, while ticket staff at Finchley Road say that I will only get
charged once. I would really like some clarification of this. I have
emailed TFL and am awaiting a response.
Staff at West Ruislip, Ruslip, Harrow-on-the-Hill and Finchley Rd
said that I could not travel through Z1 for the £1.00 fare. Clearly if
I had no more than £1.00 on my card before touching in at the start of
my journey ( Ruislip) they have a valid point. But I could have had
say £3.00 on my card at the start, travelled through zone 1 and still
got charged the £1.00 fare ?
The fares shakeup on London Overground will definitely address the
issue of routes and the correction of some fare anomalies.
Unfortunately, I am still left with this Finchley Rd / Frognal tube /
London Overground problem. I have many friends who live along the NLL
and beyond so the interchange is very useful and avoids the need to
travel though Central London.

uc

On 25 Feb, 12:51, wrote:
I am still to be convinced that Finchley *Rd / Finchley Rd + Frognal
is a valid interchange.

It isn't as far as I know. You have to take the Jubilee to West
Hampstead.

(though the worst that can happen is you're charged two separate
journeys, which with fare capping, hardly matters)

But I could have had
say £3.00 on my card at the start, travelled through zone 1 and still
got charged the £1.00 fare ?

Absolutely. You have no control over what you're charged. You're
perfectly entitled to touch in, go via Zone 1, and if they only charge
you £1 when you touch out, it's their problem, not yours.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 04:51:12 -0800 (PST), wrote:

[big snip]

I've been shouting at the computer screen while reading your adventures.
What a mess due to lack of proper publicity and decent training.

What I discovered over this weekend was :
Even though you have reached your Oyster Cap for the day you still
need a minimum amount of funds on your card to travel. This minimum
amount is dependent on what station you touch in at and what the
minimum fare from that station is at that time of the day.

This has always been the case but is *never* advertised. It is
completely ridiculous that this information is not made clear to
passengers. The lack of such publicity only results in people getting
confused and needless aggravation for staff - who are told about this
aspect of the system in their information.

I am still to be convinced that Finchley Rd / Finchley Rd + Frognal
is a valid interchange. Staff at West Ruislip , Ruislip and Harrow-on-
the-Hill say that I will get charged twice for the Ruislip-Gospel Oak
journey, while ticket staff at Finchley Road say that I will only get
charged once. I would really like some clarification of this. I have
emailed TFL and am awaiting a response.

As we previously advised it is *not* a valid interchange. West Hampstead
is. I appreciate this is marginally less convenient for your journeys
but it would save you all the hassle you put yourself through.

Staff at West Ruislip, Ruslip, Harrow-on-the-Hill and Finchley Rd
said that I could not travel through Z1 for the £1.00 fare. Clearly if
I had no more than £1.00 on my card before touching in at the start of
my journey ( Ruislip) they have a valid point. But I could have had
say £3.00 on my card at the start, travelled through zone 1 and still
got charged the £1.00 fare ?

The staff saying you cannot travel via Zone 1 are incorrect. It's
perfectly feasible for someone to have a negative balance on their card,
if using PAYG, given the £4 deduction on entry to the system. There is
nothing to suggest that having such a balance or even a low positive
balance prevents you from travelling via zone where the fare is charged
at apparently a non zone 1 price. Until such time as there is a
*choice* of fares and the choice is dependent of routing then people
must be allowed to travel via any logical route.

The Travelwatch document does point to there being more than one fare
per grouped origin / destination pair but I suspect that the use of
ticket gates / validators at Zone 1 terminals will be the deciding
factor in what price to charge. For example Highbury to Richmond but
changing via Vauxhall and exiting LU and entering SWT at that
interchange point. That would show in the card journey history and thus
a higher zone 1 fare would be applied at Richmond.

The fares shakeup on London Overground will definitely address the
issue of routes and the correction of some fare anomalies.
Unfortunately, I am still left with this Finchley Rd / Frognal tube /
London Overground problem. I have many friends who live along the NLL
and beyond so the interchange is very useful and avoids the need to
travel though Central London.

From my reading of the notes of the ticketing discussion it seems the
changes for Overground were rushed and subject to last minute changes.
Let's hope we don't get a repeat for full PAYG ticketing - now
apparently scheduled for March 2010 and not Jan 2009 from something I
read recently. I suspect this is the first of many slippages before we
get to PAYG nirvana.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:47:25 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

full PAYG ticketing - now
apparently scheduled for March 2010 and not Jan 2009 from something I
read recently.

Really? To be clear, are you saying that (as a resident of the
Southeastern railway wilderness in Zone 6) I will now not get Oyster
PAYG on my trains for a further 15 months beyond what had previously
been proposed?

Any further info on this delay? It's the first I've heard of it - not
that I'm anywhere near as good at keeping up with developments as lots
of others on u.t.l are!

(Or is the quote from you nothing to do with PAYG on Southeastern and
I'm leaping pessimistically to unintended conclusions?)

Cheers,

Paul S

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:12:01 +0000, Paul Speller
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:47:25 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

full PAYG ticketing - now
apparently scheduled for March 2010 and not Jan 2009 from something I
read recently.

Really? To be clear, are you saying that (as a resident of the
Southeastern railway wilderness in Zone 6) I will now not get Oyster
PAYG on my trains for a further 15 months beyond what had previously
been proposed?

Any further info on this delay? It's the first I've heard of it - not
that I'm anywhere near as good at keeping up with developments as lots
of others on u.t.l are!

(Or is the quote from you nothing to do with PAYG on Southeastern and
I'm leaping pessimistically to unintended conclusions?)

I'm racking my brain trying to recall where I read it. I wasn't
particularly surprised to see a revised date - it's almost a direct
extension of time given the protracted negotiation stage which is yet to
conclude.

No specific TOC or area was mentioned so you may be leaping to
unintended conclusions. However given that South Eastern seem to be one
of the most intransigent TOCs regarding Oyster and PAYG you may also be
correct :-(

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 25 Feb, 20:12, Paul Speller wrote:
(Or is the quote from you nothing to do with PAYG on Southeastern and
I'm leaping pessimistically to unintended conclusions?)

Well lets see. All of the North London TOCs have embraced PAYG in some
way, so we can count those in. SWT are legally bound by the January
2009 date, although ITSO may complicate this. Southern already accept
it on their WLL services, and their franchise is up in 2009 anyway.
That makes the most likely footdragger as...

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 12:46:46 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant wrote:

(Or is the quote from you nothing to do with PAYG on Southeastern and
I'm leaping pessimistically to unintended conclusions?)
Well lets see. All of the North London TOCs have embraced PAYG in some
way, so we can count those in. SWT are legally bound by the January
2009 date, although ITSO may complicate this. Southern already accept
it on their WLL services, and their franchise is up in 2009 anyway.
That makes the most likely footdragger as...

....the TOC operating the last franchise let out before the government
started specifying Oyster PAYG acceptance in the franchise contracts?

....the TOC with the least possible competition from TfL[1], covering
as it does the part of London occupied primarily by the Key on
TfL-operated railway maps?

....the franchise that replied with a mixture of outright lies and
bizarre leaps of logic when I lobbied them on this matter a couple
of years ago?

Surely not!

Actually this is somewhat a matter of principle rather than actual
importance to me these days - my wife has a Z3-6 annual travelcard for
work so I get a £4.80 all-zones off-peak travelcard, which is cheaper
than anything PAYG would offer me (it hasn't risen in years - what on
earth are they thinking? it's great!), when I'm travelling with her.
PAYG would be useful for her, though, especially when she wants to get
into Z1 after work on Southeastern but travel home again along a
different Southeastern line - at the moment she goes a fair bit of the
way home and then gets a return from there to avoid paying a lot more
for the two singles!

Apologies for taking this thread several miles off topic.

Paul

[1] What a coincidence that all the TOCs in the half of London well
served by PAYG-accepting tube and Overground lines (north of the Thames)
should have started accepting PAYG earlier than the deadline.

wrote

on my card to continue my journey from Finchley Road and Frognal. I
had a heated discussion at Finchley Rd + Frognal with the LO ticket
clerk. She refused to acknowledge the existence of the z2-6 YP-RC cap
of £2.80. Admittedly LO have recruited many new staff for the stations

The £2.80 is on p18 of the 2 Jan 2008 "Guide to fares and tickets", had
the station run out of that booklet ?

--
Mike D

I received an email today from LOROL customer services.
=========================================
Thank you for your recent email.

I am unable to tell you the route for your journey, you will need to
contact Transport for London who will be able to tell you the routing
and
any easy ways to make the complicated journey.

Please click on the following link to be taken to the Transport for
London
website:
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/contact/default.asp?type=tfl

You can also contact Transport for London by telephone on 0207
2221234.

I am sorry I can not be more helpful on this occasion.

================================================

I only sent LOROL an email on Sunday and have had a swift reply - the
only redeeming factor I'm afraid.
I am looking forward with great interest to TFL's reply !

uc

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:12:01 +0000, Paul Speller
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:47:25 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

full PAYG ticketing - now apparently scheduled for March 2010
and not Jan 2009 from something I read recently.

Really? To be clear, are you saying that (as a resident of the
Southeastern railway wilderness in Zone 6) I will now not get Oyster
PAYG on my trains for a further 15 months beyond what had previously
been proposed?

Any further info on this delay? It's the first I've heard of it - not
that I'm anywhere near as good at keeping up with developments as lots
of others on u.t.l are!

(Or is the quote from you nothing to do with PAYG on Southeastern and
I'm leaping pessimistically to unintended conclusions?)

I'm racking my brain trying to recall where I read it. I wasn't
particularly surprised to see a revised date - it's almost a direct
extension of time given the protracted negotiation stage which is yet
to conclude.

This sounds like a plausible interpretation of Uncle Roger's contribution
to the latest "Modern Railways"

No specific TOC or area was mentioned so you may be leaping to
unintended conclusions. However given that South Eastern seem to be one
of the most intransigent TOCs regarding Oyster and PAYG you may also be
correct :-(

--
Colin Rosenstiel