Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:28:41 +0000, Michael Hoffman
wrote:
What do trolleybuses get you?

I guess my reasoning is that trolleybuses represent a form of
"permanence" in terms of the electrical infrastructure being put in
place - similar to a tram. They are also quiet, smooth, fast and
display reasonable environmental credentials. I'm not an obsessive
enthusiast but I do think it is a huge shame that London's system was
shut down when it was. I wish I had a trolleybus level of service [1] on
my local route (formerly the 623 / 625 in Walthamstow).

I'm not entirely convinced by the dash towards hybrids and fuel cells
given that trolleybus technology is mature and well understood. It has
also advanced considerably in recent years meaning that it is a more
flexible mode than it was. I do recognise that there are some issues
over the ability to overtake, the risk of breakdowns, complex junction
work with the wiring plus people may not wish to see lots of "knitting"
above London streets.

Do I assume you don't see a place for trolleys in London?

It was a serious question, not a rhetorical one.
--
Michael Hoffman

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:28:41 +0000, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

I'd like to see a move towards more tram lines and the
reintroduction
of trolleybuses for busy routes or networks that don't justify
conversion to trams.

What do trolleybuses get you?

I guess my reasoning is that trolleybuses represent a form of
"permanence" in terms of the electrical infrastructure being put in
place - similar to a tram. They are also quiet, smooth, fast and
display reasonable environmental credentials. I'm not an obsessive
enthusiast but I do think it is a huge shame that London's system was
shut down when it was. I wish I had a trolleybus level of service [1]
on my local route (formerly the 623 / 625 in Walthamstow).

I'm not entirely convinced by the dash towards hybrids and fuel cells
given that trolleybus technology is mature and well understood. It has
also advanced considerably in recent years meaning that it is a more
flexible mode than it was. I do recognise that there are some issues
over the ability to overtake, the risk of breakdowns, complex junction
work with the wiring plus people may not wish to see lots of "knitting"
above London streets.

Do I assume you don't see a place for trolleys in London?

[1] about every 5 mins - on Christmas Day !

I'm a great fan of trolleybuses but I do slightly wonder what they offer
these days apart from electric traction, even though I share your
scepticism of hybrids and fuel cells.

Modern diesel engines have much better power to weight ratios than in the
heyday of London Trolleybuses. Even the RMLs of the day could carry more
passengers than the trolleybuses they replaced.

And is there any world experience of high capacity modern double-deck
trolleybuses at all?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message .uk, at
15:07:00 on Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
And is there any world experience of high capacity modern double-deck
trolleybuses at all?

They have very effective trolly-bendy-buses in Geneva.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/.../Geneve-02.jpg

And some that are more like trams-on-tyres:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/.../Geneve-04.jpg

The only remaining modern double decker trolleybus may be this one in
Hong Kong (a trial, apparently now discontinued):

http://www.trolleybus.net/hk.htm
--
Roland Perry

On Feb 29, 7:35 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:28:41 +0000, Michael Hoffman


Paul Corfield wrote:

I'd like to see a move towards more tram lines and the reintroduction of
trolleybuses for busy routes or networks that don't justify conversion
to trams.

What do trolleybuses get you?

I guess my reasoning is that trolleybuses represent a form of
"permanence" in terms of the electrical infrastructure being put in
place - similar to a tram. They are also quiet, smooth, fast and

snip

London could certainly do with smoother bus rides (although as a
priority, for me it comes rather a long way behind keeping buses out
of congestion and having working 'next bus' indicators at every stop)
and trolleybuses would no doubt help. But the biggest impact must be
the road surface. When I was in Berlin I was amazed at how smooth the
buses were. I assume that it's just down to maintaining the roads to
a higher quality, and not letting utilities dig them up whenever they
please. Is there any more to it than that?

I did take the 129 from North Greenwich the other day, which operates
hybrid buses, and on the busway they were very smooth - similar to a
tram.

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 10:56:01 -0800 (PST), brixtonite
wrote:

London could certainly do with smoother bus rides (although as a
priority, for me it comes rather a long way behind keeping buses out
of congestion and having working 'next bus' indicators at every stop)
and trolleybuses would no doubt help. But the biggest impact must be
the road surface. When I was in Berlin I was amazed at how smooth the
buses were. I assume that it's just down to maintaining the roads to
a higher quality, and not letting utilities dig them up whenever they
please. Is there any more to it than that?

One thing that would make London bus rides much smoother would be the
implementation of Bangkok-style "countdown to red" displays on traffic
lights. These would allow safe and sensible judgement of whether the
bus will get through on the current phase, and thus reduce heavy
acceleration (to get through a set of green lights) and braking (when
the bus fails to do so).

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Michael Hoffman wrote:
What do trolleybuses get you?

A severe attack of nostalgia?

ESB

I'd like to see a commitment to Chelsea - Hackney being implemented. I'd
also like a full review done of tube services to see if or how they can
be further improved beyond the planned upgrades. I also believe there is
scope for a programme of new lines and possibly some extensions and I
believe the lessons from places like Madrid, where lines can be built in
next to no time, should be learned for London. Current proposals to
renew and upgrade the tube would continue. I don't really know what I'd
do about the Metronet situation as it's hideously complicated.

Amen!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

I like to see much more detail about how the National Rail network would
be developed to give consistent, frequent services that provide
sufficient capacity. I'd like to see some bravery around improving
signalling capacity, removing conflicting junctions and better
co-ordination of service patterns. I'd certainly want to see ELLX Phase
2 completed and I'd be brave and double and rebuild the Canonbury tunnel
to get Overground up to Finsbury Park. Electrification of the GOBLIN
would also be an absolute priority as would extra stations and further
improved interchange.

stuff snipped

There's my 2p worth.

You do realise you just got my vote for mayor - now how do we pay for
it?`
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

In message , Steve Fitzgerald
] writes
In message , Paul Corfield
writes

I like to see much more detail about how the National Rail network would
be developed to give consistent, frequent services that provide
sufficient capacity. I'd like to see some bravery around improving
signalling capacity, removing conflicting junctions and better
co-ordination of service patterns. I'd certainly want to see ELLX Phase
2 completed and I'd be brave and double and rebuild the Canonbury tunnel
to get Overground up to Finsbury Park. Electrification of the GOBLIN
would also be an absolute priority as would extra stations and further
improved interchange.

stuff snipped

There's my 2p worth.

You do realise you just got my vote for mayor - now how do we pay for
it?`
Can anyone work out to what level we would need to put up the Congestion
Charge to pay for it? ;-)

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:26:39 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald ]
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

I like to see much more detail about how the National Rail network would
be developed to give consistent, frequent services that provide
sufficient capacity. I'd like to see some bravery around improving
signalling capacity, removing conflicting junctions and better
co-ordination of service patterns. I'd certainly want to see ELLX Phase
2 completed and I'd be brave and double and rebuild the Canonbury tunnel
to get Overground up to Finsbury Park. Electrification of the GOBLIN
would also be an absolute priority as would extra stations and further
improved interchange.

stuff snipped

The other thing I would like to consider is tram / train services. The
local lines out of Liverpool St to the Lea Valley might be a good basis
for this. I've already posted about converting the Chingford line to
"lighter" technology. However thinking further I can see benefit in
extending tram / trains on to street running in say Enfield to link up
other areas or to run on to the GN line near Enfield Chase or across to
Brimsdown. Similarly there could be benefits to cross town links in
Hertford or to have some tram / train coverage in Harlow. This would
raise the quality and connectivity of rail transport hugely in these
areas and start to tie together networks that were destined by history
to be separate. A further "mad" idea would be to start to construct
inter-urban tramways in the more congested parts of the adjoining
counties as a way of offering a high quality alternative to the car.
This is obviously not just a London issue but deregulated buses won't
hack it in these areas but rail might do so.

There's my 2p worth.

You do realise you just got my vote for mayor - now how do we pay for
it?`

Some more money from government.
More use of land value gain taxation / private sector funding / special
levy.
Road use charging within the M25 area.
A more efficient TfL organization.
A more efficient Mayoral / GLA organization.
Cost reductions through faster planning processes, use of modular
designs, longer term planned programme of works giving procurement
savings, revised and cheaper arrangements for maintenance and
enhancement of infrastructure and railway assets.
Investment in cost reducing technology / employment of effective asset
management techniques.
Fare increases on PAYG slightly ahead of inflation. Current fares on
PAYG are a bargain and I think the market can take a level of increase
beyond just inflation.
I'd also look very seriously at fully automatic driverless operation on
new tube lines and possibly on existing ones - I think I might have just
lost your vote ;-)

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!