On Apr 7, 4:54 pm, wrote:
Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It sounds
like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty fare for
not touching in.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

I'm touching in at Gunnersbury, taking the London Overground to
Willesden (on my Oyster Z2-3 weekly travelcard) and from there to
Watford Jn where I touch out.

That looks like there's something seriously wrong (or at least unfair)
with the system.

Gunnersbury to Watford Junction is 3.50GBP at that time on PAYG. But
Willesden Junction to Watford Junction would be 1GBP at that time. It
looks like you're being charged an extension at the the peak 3.50GBP
fare.

I'd suggest getting a second PAYG card, touching out on your travel
card and then in on your PAYG card at willesden.

The unresolved journey would be 5GBP.

Tim.

On 7 Apr, 17:10, " wrote:

On Apr 7, 4:54 pm, wrote:

Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It sounds
like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty fare for
not touching in.

I'm touching in at Gunnersbury, taking the London Overground to
Willesden (on my Oyster Z2-3 weekly travelcard) and from there to
Watford Jn where I touch out.

That looks like there's something seriously wrong (or at least unfair)
with the system.

Gunnersbury to Watford Junction is 3.50GBP at that time on PAYG. But
Willesden Junction to Watford Junction would be 1GBP at that time. It
looks like you're being charged an extension at the the peak 3.50GBP
fare.


Yeah, this does seem wonky and whilst I can normally figure these
things out I'm a bit stuck in working out what's actually happening
here.

Considering the journey when using PAYG only (rather than using a
Travelcard and PAYG combo), then the cheaper daytime Oyster fares
available on the Euston - Watford Jn (London Overground) route are
nullified as soon as one transfers to the Underground (or indeed onto
other LO routes such as the NLL). This makes sense when one considers
people travelling in from Watford and changing to the Tube at Euston
for zone 1 destinations, but if one starts to look at journeys outside
zone 1 then things make less sense.

Thus the Gunnersbury to Willesden Jn PAYG fare is £1 at any time, and
the Willesden Jn to Watford Jn PAYG fare is also £1 (at the lower
'discount' Oyster rate that applies on this line at all times except
between 1600 and 1900 in this direction). In my mind the through fare
should really be charged at £2.

The TfL Fares Finder meanwhile quotes it as being £3.50 - which is in
fact the zones 3-W Oyster PAYG fare (the higher 'standard' - i.e. non-
discount - PAYG fare). This tallies with the definitive fares table in
the TfL December board papers - see page 48 of this 6.9MB PDF (the
entry is listed as 3456W***):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-dec-2007.pdf


But all this is without considering the Travelcard that's also loaded
on the Oyster card. This really should mean that system is aware that
the passenger only has to pay for the Willesden Jn to Watford Jn
stretch, which costs £1 (except between 1600 and 1900 when it costs
£3.50).

I'm curious as to whether the OP has made a mistake in saying that the
system charges him £3 rather than £3.50 - if it is £3.50 then this
would fit my hypothesis that the system either can't cope or hasn't
been configured to cope with journeys that are subject to two separate
Oyster PAYG fares brackets - i.e. 'standard' PAYG fares (weekdays
7am-7pm), and 'discount' PAYG fares (all other times, plus most of the
day on the Watford Jn - Euston line) - and simply defaults to charging
the more expensive fare.

Alternatively if the OP really is being charged £3 then perhaps
something even odder is going on, with the system charging the Euston
to Watford Jn fare (£3 'discount', £5.50 'standard').

I would certainly suggest that the OP contacts the Oyster helpline for
a refund - perhaps someone might look into this and change how things
are configured.

The other solution is Tim's...


I'd suggest getting a second PAYG card, touching out on your travel
card and then in on your PAYG card at willesden.


At the moment holders of Travelcards on Oyster don't actually need to
touch-out, so if there are still any standalone Oyster readers at
Willesden Jn then the OP could simply touch-in his second Oyster card
on one of them and that should work fine. Just don't get them muddled
up (different colour wallets is the obvious suggestion!).


The unresolved journey would be 5GBP.


Yes and no. The max cash fare 'penalty' for unresolved journeys is £4,
except where one has passed through a National Rail terminus stations
such as Euston, Liverpool St or Marylebone where it is £5.

On Apr 7, 6:16 pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 7 Apr, 17:10, " wrote:
The unresolved journey would be 5GBP.

Yes and no. The max cash fare 'penalty' for unresolved journeys is £4,
except where one has passed through a National Rail terminus stations
such as Euston, Liverpool St or Marylebone where it is £5.

I was going to say that includes Watford Junction as well. But
thinking again, the three unresolved Journeys I know of were all a
failure at Watford Junction in a Euston-Watford Journey.

The entry at Watford Junction at peak times debits 5GBP - which
actually means that the 08:06 (assuming it still goes to platform 17
or one of those anyway) would be cheaper if you don't touch out. (and
probably illegal)

However I've also noticed that off peak entry at Watford Junction
debits 3GBP with no adjustment at Euston while off peak entry at
Euston debits 5GBP with a 2GBP correction at Watford Junction.

07/04/08 08:18 Euston NR Exit £0.50
07:55 Watford Junction Entry - £5.00
06/04/08 16:08 Watford Junction Exit £2.00
15:20 Euston NR Entry - £5.00
12:54 Euston NR Exit £0.00
12:17 Watford Junction Entry - £3.00

So you are probably correct.

Hmmm. And something has gone wrong with the manual gate oyster reader
at Watford Junction (it was turned off on Sunday, yesterday and today,
so I've been having to open one of the automatic gates and then take
my bike through the manual gate) - I've also only got Euston NR entry
and exit for 03/04 and 04/04 although the total does look correct.

Tim.

I'm curious as to whether the OP has made a mistake in saying that the
system charges him £3 rather than £3.50 - if it is £3.50 then this
would fit my hypothesis that the system either can't cope or hasn't
been configured to cope with journeys that are subject to two separate
Oyster PAYG fares brackets - i.e. 'standard' PAYG fares (weekdays
7am-7pm), and 'discount' PAYG fares (all other times, plus most of the
day on the Watford Jn - Euston line) - and simply defaults to charging
the more expensive fare.

Alternatively if the OP really is being charged £3 then perhaps
something even odder is going on, with the system charging the Euston
to Watford Jn fare (£3 'discount', £5.50 'standard').

I would certainly suggest that the OP contacts the Oyster helpline for
a refund - perhaps someone might look into this and change how things
are configured.



It is definitely £3 each way. I wonder if this is the peak time fare
from the Zone 3 boundary to Watford Junction? (certainly it is £3 from
Wembley Central to Watford Jn according to the single fare finder).
Looks like for some reason the special discount travelling away from
Euston isn't on extension fares which is a little odd. Have contacted
TfL but not too hopeful . . .

I'd suggest getting a second PAYG card, touching out on your travel
card and then in on your PAYG card at willesden.

At the moment holders of Travelcards on Oyster don't actually need to
touch-out, so if there are still any standalone Oyster readers at
Willesden Jn then the OP could simply touch-in his second Oyster card
on one of them and that should work fine. Just don't get them muddled
up (different colour wallets is the obvious suggestion!).


Good idea, but would need to walk out the gates and back in again as
no Oyster readers on or between the platforms . . . All seems a bit
daft!

On 8 Apr, 09:53, wrote:
Good idea, but would need to walk out the gates and back in again as
no Oyster readers on or between the platforms . . . All seems a bit
daft!

You might not have noticed, but there is a barriered exit about
halfway along the corridor between the platforms where it'd be very
easy to do this. On the right coming from the NLL. You might get a
funny look if there are staff on duty, but that's it.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 8 Apr, 10:03, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 8 Apr, 09:53, wrote:

Good idea, but would need to walk out the gates and back in again as
no Oyster readers on or between the platforms . . . All seems a bit
daft!

You might not have noticed, but there is a barriered exit about
halfway along the corridor between the platforms *where it'd be very
easy to do this. On the right coming from the NLL. You might get a
funny look if there are staff on duty, but that's it.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

For some reason, Watford Junction is seriously upsetting the
Oystercard computer.
There were two articles recently about all sorts of discrepencies, and
I believe it's all to do
with Watford Junction not being in a Travelcard zone, whereas for
example, Watford High Street is.

On 8 Apr, 10:03, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 8 Apr, 09:53, wrote:

Good idea, but would need to walk out the gates and back in again as
no Oyster readers on or between the platforms . . . All seems a bit
daft!


Right, I thought the standalone readers on the platforms may well have
vanished, and given that they were intended for passengers with paper
tickets transferring from the NLL or WLL - both of which now accept
Oyster PAYG throughout - I'm not really surprised by their
disappearance.


You might not have noticed, but there is a barriered exit about
halfway along the corridor between the platforms where it'd be very
easy to do this. On the right coming from the NLL. You might get a
funny look if there are staff on duty, but that's it.


As there are in fact two gated entrances, one could leave via one set
of gates in the old redbrick station building then walk along the
'floating walkway' to the new-ish secondary entrance next to the bus
stops at the western edge of the station before re-entering. It's the
long way round, thought it really isn't that far, but if it's raining
or one misses one's connection then it might not seem like such a
great idea.

I quite agree with Jake the OP's comments that this all seems pretty
daft, and I also share his lack of optimism that anything will change
as a mere result of his enquiry.

May I suggest that actually writing a (physical, hard-to-ignore,
paper) letter to the Oyster people might elicit a better response if
you get nothing out of them first time round. Nothing too complicated,
merely a concise note which states that the overall fare you paid
doesn't live up to the Oyster lowest price promise - and as it's a
journey you wish to do regularly then unless something is done about
it you will continually come across this issue and be asking them for
a refund.

On 8 Apr, 11:43, Mizter T wrote:
As there are in fact two gated entrances, one could leave via one set
of gates in the old redbrick station building then walk along the
'floating walkway' to the new-ish secondary entrance next to the bus
stops at the western edge of the station before re-entering.

The floating walkway is within the barriers. You'd have to go through
the bus station to get to the second entrance from the outside.

It's the
long way round, thought it really isn't that far, but if it's raining
or one misses one's connection then it might not seem like such a
great idea.

Especially when you could have just touched back in at the same
gateline and not have to go more than a few feet from the interchange
route.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 8 Apr, 11:56, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 8 Apr, 11:43, Mizter T wrote:

As there are in fact two gated entrances, one could leave via one set
of gates in the old redbrick station building then walk along the
'floating walkway' to the new-ish secondary entrance next to the bus
stops at the western edge of the station before re-entering.

The floating walkway is within the barriers. You'd have to go through
the bus station to get to the second entrance from the outside.

Yes, you're absolutely right - my mistake.


It's the
long way round, thought it really isn't that far, but if it's raining
or one misses one's connection then it might not seem like such a
great idea.

Especially when you could have just touched back in at the same
gateline and not have to go more than a few feet from the interchange
route.


Well, if one wanted to avoid odd looks from the gateline staff then I
suppose it's an option!