I have a zone 2-3 weekly travelcard but sometimes need to go to
Watford Jn on the London Overground at around 8am. I can get to
Willesden Junction on my travelcard, where I change onto the London
Overground - in order to change I don't need to touch in or out.

If I'd bought a single PAYG from WIllesden this would have cost me £1
as it is a local journey away from Euston (right?) - so how come I am
being charged £3 as an 'extension fare' for the same trip? Have I done
something wrong? Is there anyway I can avoid this (maybe touch out and
back in at Willesden?)

Anyone any idea what the 'extension fare' to Watford would be if I
owned a 2-6 travelcard instead?

On 7 Apr, 16:33, wrote:
I have a zone 2-3 weekly travelcard but sometimes need to go to
Watford Jn on the London Overground at around 8am. I can get to
Willesden Junction on my travelcard, where I change onto the London
Overground - in order to change I don't need to touch in or out.

Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It sounds
like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty fare for
not touching in.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It sounds
like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty fare for
not touching in.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

I'm touching in at Gunnersbury, taking the London Overground to
Willesden (on my Oyster Z2-3 weekly travelcard) and from there to
Watford Jn where I touch out.

On Apr 7, 4:54 pm, wrote:
Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It sounds
like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty fare for
not touching in.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

I'm touching in at Gunnersbury, taking the London Overground to
Willesden (on my Oyster Z2-3 weekly travelcard) and from there to
Watford Jn where I touch out.

That looks like there's something seriously wrong (or at least unfair)
with the system.

Gunnersbury to Watford Junction is 3.50GBP at that time on PAYG. But
Willesden Junction to Watford Junction would be 1GBP at that time. It
looks like you're being charged an extension at the the peak 3.50GBP
fare.

I'd suggest getting a second PAYG card, touching out on your travel
card and then in on your PAYG card at willesden.

The unresolved journey would be 5GBP.

Tim.

On 7 Apr, 17:10, " wrote:

On Apr 7, 4:54 pm, wrote:

Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It sounds
like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty fare for
not touching in.

I'm touching in at Gunnersbury, taking the London Overground to
Willesden (on my Oyster Z2-3 weekly travelcard) and from there to
Watford Jn where I touch out.

That looks like there's something seriously wrong (or at least unfair)
with the system.

Gunnersbury to Watford Junction is 3.50GBP at that time on PAYG. But
Willesden Junction to Watford Junction would be 1GBP at that time. It
looks like you're being charged an extension at the the peak 3.50GBP
fare.


Yeah, this does seem wonky and whilst I can normally figure these
things out I'm a bit stuck in working out what's actually happening
here.

Considering the journey when using PAYG only (rather than using a
Travelcard and PAYG combo), then the cheaper daytime Oyster fares
available on the Euston - Watford Jn (London Overground) route are
nullified as soon as one transfers to the Underground (or indeed onto
other LO routes such as the NLL). This makes sense when one considers
people travelling in from Watford and changing to the Tube at Euston
for zone 1 destinations, but if one starts to look at journeys outside
zone 1 then things make less sense.

Thus the Gunnersbury to Willesden Jn PAYG fare is £1 at any time, and
the Willesden Jn to Watford Jn PAYG fare is also £1 (at the lower
'discount' Oyster rate that applies on this line at all times except
between 1600 and 1900 in this direction). In my mind the through fare
should really be charged at £2.

The TfL Fares Finder meanwhile quotes it as being £3.50 - which is in
fact the zones 3-W Oyster PAYG fare (the higher 'standard' - i.e. non-
discount - PAYG fare). This tallies with the definitive fares table in
the TfL December board papers - see page 48 of this 6.9MB PDF (the
entry is listed as 3456W***):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-dec-2007.pdf


But all this is without considering the Travelcard that's also loaded
on the Oyster card. This really should mean that system is aware that
the passenger only has to pay for the Willesden Jn to Watford Jn
stretch, which costs £1 (except between 1600 and 1900 when it costs
£3.50).

I'm curious as to whether the OP has made a mistake in saying that the
system charges him £3 rather than £3.50 - if it is £3.50 then this
would fit my hypothesis that the system either can't cope or hasn't
been configured to cope with journeys that are subject to two separate
Oyster PAYG fares brackets - i.e. 'standard' PAYG fares (weekdays
7am-7pm), and 'discount' PAYG fares (all other times, plus most of the
day on the Watford Jn - Euston line) - and simply defaults to charging
the more expensive fare.

Alternatively if the OP really is being charged £3 then perhaps
something even odder is going on, with the system charging the Euston
to Watford Jn fare (£3 'discount', £5.50 'standard').

I would certainly suggest that the OP contacts the Oyster helpline for
a refund - perhaps someone might look into this and change how things
are configured.

The other solution is Tim's...


I'd suggest getting a second PAYG card, touching out on your travel
card and then in on your PAYG card at willesden.


At the moment holders of Travelcards on Oyster don't actually need to
touch-out, so if there are still any standalone Oyster readers at
Willesden Jn then the OP could simply touch-in his second Oyster card
on one of them and that should work fine. Just don't get them muddled
up (different colour wallets is the obvious suggestion!).


The unresolved journey would be 5GBP.


Yes and no. The max cash fare 'penalty' for unresolved journeys is £4,
except where one has passed through a National Rail terminus stations
such as Euston, Liverpool St or Marylebone where it is £5.

On Apr 7, 6:16 pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 7 Apr, 17:10, " wrote:
The unresolved journey would be 5GBP.

Yes and no. The max cash fare 'penalty' for unresolved journeys is £4,
except where one has passed through a National Rail terminus stations
such as Euston, Liverpool St or Marylebone where it is £5.

I was going to say that includes Watford Junction as well. But
thinking again, the three unresolved Journeys I know of were all a
failure at Watford Junction in a Euston-Watford Journey.

The entry at Watford Junction at peak times debits 5GBP - which
actually means that the 08:06 (assuming it still goes to platform 17
or one of those anyway) would be cheaper if you don't touch out. (and
probably illegal)

However I've also noticed that off peak entry at Watford Junction
debits 3GBP with no adjustment at Euston while off peak entry at
Euston debits 5GBP with a 2GBP correction at Watford Junction.

07/04/08 08:18 Euston NR Exit £0.50
07:55 Watford Junction Entry - £5.00
06/04/08 16:08 Watford Junction Exit £2.00
15:20 Euston NR Entry - £5.00
12:54 Euston NR Exit £0.00
12:17 Watford Junction Entry - £3.00

So you are probably correct.

Hmmm. And something has gone wrong with the manual gate oyster reader
at Watford Junction (it was turned off on Sunday, yesterday and today,
so I've been having to open one of the automatic gates and then take
my bike through the manual gate) - I've also only got Euston NR entry
and exit for 03/04 and 04/04 although the total does look correct.

Tim.

I'm curious as to whether the OP has made a mistake in saying that the
system charges him £3 rather than £3.50 - if it is £3.50 then this
would fit my hypothesis that the system either can't cope or hasn't
been configured to cope with journeys that are subject to two separate
Oyster PAYG fares brackets - i.e. 'standard' PAYG fares (weekdays
7am-7pm), and 'discount' PAYG fares (all other times, plus most of the
day on the Watford Jn - Euston line) - and simply defaults to charging
the more expensive fare.

Alternatively if the OP really is being charged £3 then perhaps
something even odder is going on, with the system charging the Euston
to Watford Jn fare (£3 'discount', £5.50 'standard').

I would certainly suggest that the OP contacts the Oyster helpline for
a refund - perhaps someone might look into this and change how things
are configured.



It is definitely £3 each way. I wonder if this is the peak time fare
from the Zone 3 boundary to Watford Junction? (certainly it is £3 from
Wembley Central to Watford Jn according to the single fare finder).
Looks like for some reason the special discount travelling away from
Euston isn't on extension fares which is a little odd. Have contacted
TfL but not too hopeful . . .

I'd suggest getting a second PAYG card, touching out on your travel
card and then in on your PAYG card at willesden.

At the moment holders of Travelcards on Oyster don't actually need to
touch-out, so if there are still any standalone Oyster readers at
Willesden Jn then the OP could simply touch-in his second Oyster card
on one of them and that should work fine. Just don't get them muddled
up (different colour wallets is the obvious suggestion!).


Good idea, but would need to walk out the gates and back in again as
no Oyster readers on or between the platforms . . . All seems a bit
daft!

wrote:
Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It sounds
like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty fare for
not touching in.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

I'm touching in at Gunnersbury, taking the London Overground to
Willesden (on my Oyster Z2-3 weekly travelcard) and from there to
Watford Jn where I touch out.

I am no expert, but the Euston Watford local fares are explained as a
special case applicable to the former DC lines route only. So unless you
touch in for PAYG at Willesden Junction, how does the Oyster computer decide
where you started the PAYG leg? Clearly Willesden Junction is the likely
change point, but it may not be programmed to assume that.

I'd suggest see what happens with an additional touch in at Willesden J.

Paul

On 7 Apr, 17:33, "Paul Scott" wrote:

wrote:
Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It sounds
like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty fare for
not touching in.


I'm touching in at Gunnersbury, taking the London Overground to
Willesden (on my Oyster Z2-3 weekly travelcard) and from there to
Watford Jn where I touch out.

I am no expert, but the Euston Watford local fares are explained as a
special case applicable to the former DC lines route only. So unless you
touch in for PAYG at Willesden Junction, how does the Oyster computer decide
where you started the PAYG leg? Clearly Willesden Junction is the likely
change point, but it may not be programmed to assume that.


I agree with that analysis - the thing is that it just isn't very
logical to do this journey via any other route.


I'd suggest see what happens with an additional touch in at Willesden J.


Though I'm not sure if there are any standalone Oyster readers (for
interchanging passengers) at Willesden Jn any more, given that any
such passengers would likely be coming off the NLL or WLL which now
also accept Oyster PAYG.

However if there are then I'd definitely suggest trying it, as it
won't do any harm - given that the Oyster card also holds a Travelcard
then the unresolved journey 'penalty' certainly shouldn't be charged
for any extra validations at Willesden Jn (given that it is within
zone 3, which is covered by the Travelcard in question).

Mizter T wrote in
:

On 7 Apr, 17:33, "Paul Scott" wrote:

wrote:
Where exactly are you touching in or out during all this? It
sounds like you're being issued the £3 unresolved journey penalty
fare for not touching in.


I'm touching in at Gunnersbury, taking the London Overground to
Willesden (on my Oyster Z2-3 weekly travelcard) and from there to
Watford Jn where I touch out.

I am no expert, but the Euston Watford local fares are explained as a
special case applicable to the former DC lines route only. So unless
you touch in for PAYG at Willesden Junction, how does the Oyster
computer deci
de
where you started the PAYG leg? Clearly Willesden Junction is the
likely change point, but it may not be programmed to assume that.


I agree with that analysis - the thing is that it just isn't very
logical to do this journey via any other route.


Doesn't the special rule for Off-Peak on the Euston line present all sorts
of problems like this, to a much greater extent than the blanket 07:00 -
19:00 "peak"?

What is the fare from Watford Junction to Oxford Circus via Euston leaving
at 10:15? Does the system charge:

a) £ 6.00 (the peak fare from Watford to Oxford Circus) or

b) £ 4.50 (the £3.00 off-peak fare from Watford to Euston [London
Overground]) plus the a Z1 fare, £1.50?

David