I have no idea what they're called, the LED signs in some bus stops
that tell you how long the busses are supposed to be, my question is,
how do they work? how do they update?

A few times I've seen that my bus is due next in a couple of minutes
but it just doesn't arrive, several later busses come and then it
vanishes off the sign, abducted by aliens?

Then there are the times I've seen my bus is due in 10 minutes and
decided that instead of standing in the cold I'll walk to the next or
previous stop only for it to come sailing past when I'm mid-way
between stops.

And how many seconds are in a London Transport minute anyway? 90 at
least.

Obviously the system is not perfect (no system is) but if I knew what
made it tick I may be better equipped for getting around.

And why I'm grumbling about busses, why is it so rare for a 38 to get
to the end of it's route? I live near clapton pond and often need to
travel to victoria, when I have the time I'd rather sit on a bus than
go underground but often they terminate at hyde park corner or green
park, same the other way often only making it to hackney central, in
both cases I need to get another bus, pain in the arse, especially as
the end of their route is only 5 minutes away.

grumble grumble
--
Mark.
www.MarkVarleyPhoto.co.uk
www.TwistedPhotography.co.uk
www.TwistedArts.co.uk
www.FacelessLadies.com
www.BeautifulBondage.net

On 11 Apr, 17:20, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:

I have no idea what they're called, the LED signs in some bus stops
that tell you how long the busses are supposed to be, my question is,
how do they work? how do they update?

A few times I've seen that my bus is due next in a couple of minutes
but it just doesn't arrive, several later busses come and then it
vanishes off the sign, abducted by aliens?

Then there are the times I've seen my bus is due in 10 minutes and
decided that instead of standing in the cold I'll walk to the next or
previous stop only for it to come sailing past when I'm mid-way
between stops.

And how many seconds are in a London Transport minute anyway? 90 at
least.

Obviously the system is not perfect (no system is) but if I knew what
made it tick I may be better equipped for getting around.


The system is called Countdown, and as part of the iBus project it is
set to become much more reliable and accurate.

Countdown:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...ment/2369.aspx
or via http://tinyurl.com/4swhsj

iBus:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...ment/2373.aspx
or via http://tinyurl.com/yu6wwe

On Apr 11, 5:48*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Apr, 17:20, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:





I have no idea what they're called, the LED signs in some bus stops
that tell you how long the busses are supposed to be, my question is,
how do they work? how do they update?

A few times I've seen that my bus is due next in a couple of minutes
but it just doesn't arrive, several later busses come and then it
vanishes off the sign, abducted by aliens?

Then there are the times I've seen my bus is due in 10 minutes and
decided that instead of standing in the cold I'll walk to the next or
previous stop only for it to come sailing past when I'm mid-way
between stops.

And how many seconds are in a London Transport minute anyway? 90 at
least.

Obviously the system is not perfect (no system is) but if I knew what
made it tick I may be better equipped for getting around.

The system is called Countdown, and as part of the iBus project it is
set to become much more reliable and accurate.

Countdown:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...nologyandequip...
or via http://tinyurl.com/4swhsj

iBus:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...nologyandequip....
or via http://tinyurl.com/yu6wwe-

I wonder if it means more reliable in terms of whether it breaks down
or reliable in terms of the content, which must be down to where the
locations of the bus-detectors rather than the system that passes
information to the punters.

I suspect that the information is very accurate, but that it doesn't
necessarily relate to the location of the bus stop.

That is, some stops will display information about buses that have
already gone past (and therefore seem to disappear) and others
disappear the information off long before the bus has turned up.

I also recall a problem with a bus whose starting point was just round
the corner, and it turned up unannounced because the system didn't
seem to be aware of it at all (a nice surprise in that case).

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, MIG wrote:

On Apr 11, 5:48*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Apr, 17:20, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:

I have no idea what they're called, the LED signs in some bus stops
that tell you how long the busses are supposed to be, my question is,
how do they work? how do they update?

The system is called Countdown, and as part of the iBus project it is
set to become much more reliable and accurate.

I wonder if it means more reliable in terms of whether it breaks down
or reliable in terms of the content, which must be down to where the
locations of the bus-detectors rather than the system that passes
information to the punters.

The new system won't use bus detectors, it'll have a GPS unit on each bus
which radios its position back to base (by GPRS?). That gives it higher
resolution, and makes it impossible for a bus to fall off the system, as
they can now.

Provided that the bus can get good GPS and GPRS signals. GPS is
notoriously inaccurate in built-up areas, as buildings block lines of
sight to the satellites, and introduce reflections which confuse the
receiver (like ghosting on the telly). I wonder what they're doing to deal
with this? Maybe just having the receiver on the top of the bus will be
enough. Newer GPS chipsets are also getting better at operating in urban
environments - for instance, i hear that the SirfStar III is much better
than older kit:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/SiRF_III

I suspect that the information is very accurate, but that it doesn't
necessarily relate to the location of the bus stop.

That is, some stops will display information about buses that have
already gone past (and therefore seem to disappear) and others
disappear the information off long before the bus has turned up.

Neither of those should happen. The main failure mode will probably be the
display (or its communication link) breaking down altogether.

Another plus of iBus is that it will let the bus operators and TfL track
all buses all the time, which will give them a much, much better ability
to (a) regulate the service and (b) monitor performance. Operators will
find it much harder to get away with providing a substandard service,
particularly at night, when i understand tfL's inspectors don't operate.

tom

--
Ed editor textorum probatissimus est -- Cicero, De officiis IV.7

On Apr 11, 7:04*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, MIG wrote:
On Apr 11, 5:48*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Apr, 17:20, MarkVarley - MVP
wrote:

I have no idea what they're called, the LED signs in some bus stops
that tell you how long the busses are supposed to be, my question is,
how do they work? how do they update?

The system is called Countdown, and as part of the iBus project it is
set to become much more reliable and accurate.

I wonder if it means more reliable in terms of whether it breaks down
or reliable in terms of the content, which must be down to where the
locations of the bus-detectors rather than the system that passes
information to the punters.

The new system won't use bus detectors, it'll have a GPS unit on each bus
which radios its position back to base (by GPRS?). That gives it higher
resolution, and makes it impossible for a bus to fall off the system, as
they can now.

Ah right. That should definitely be an improvement, as long as the
right direction has been programmed in ...

Does the use of GPS have implications for Oyster and flat fares?

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, MIG wrote:

Does the use of GPS have implications for Oyster and flat fares?

I don't think so. We had the technical capacity to have non-flat fares
before GPS, and indeed did so. The flares were flattened as an act of
policy, not practical exigency. I suppose with GPS they could introduce
some truly fiendish true-distance-based fare system, but i can't see why
they would.

tom

--
The MAtrix had evarything in it: guns, a juimping off teh walls, flying
guns, a bullet tiem, evil computar machenes, numbers that flew, flying
gun bullets in slowar motian, juimping into a gun, dead police men,
computar hackeing, Kevin Mitnick, oven trailers, a old womans kitchen,
stairs, mature women in clotheing, head spark plugs, mechaanical squids,
Japaneseses assasins, tiem traval, volcanos, a monstar, slow time at
fastar speed, magic, wizzards, some dirty place, Kung Few, fighting,
a lot of mess explodsians EVARYWHERE, and just about anything else yuo
can names!

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:22:49 -0700 (PDT), MIG
wrote:

Does the use of GPS have implications for Oyster and flat fares?

Not under the current Mayoral regime as I don't see Ken removing flat
fares.

However I think GPS or something similar is used in Singapore to
determine bus position relative to bus stops and this triggers the card
readers to become active and able to read and write to cards. This is
because Singapore has entry and exit validation on bus. Works very well
to be honest but that's as much a cultural phenomenon as a technological
one. TfL are proposing a new form of bus ticket machine that will act
as a technology hub linked into new radio and I-Bus. There is some
mammoth document on the TfL website that lists all of the projects in
the next Business Plan and this is in it. It could form the backbone of
allowing exit validation and distance based charging.

If you were feeling particularly nasty you could infer that the lack of
mention of fares policy in Boris's manifesto and the proposed
reintroduction of conductors could presage a return to some form of
distance based fare in London. On the face of it Mr Paddick's "I hour
and as many changes as you like" ticket must presumably be flat within
whatever area it applies in. From what little I've read about it that
policy was off the back of shortening routes that run in to Zone 1 and
forcing people to change buses - a recipe for failure if ever I read one
given the long established travel patterns on core routes into Zone 1.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 11 Apr, 19:04, Tom Anderson wrote:
Provided that the bus can get good GPS and GPRS signals. GPS is
notoriously inaccurate in built-up areas, as buildings block lines of
sight to the satellites, and introduce reflections which confuse the
receiver (like ghosting on the telly). I wonder what they're doing to deal
with this?

I've read a TfL paper that I can't find right now that found it to be
surprisingly accurate, something like dead on 98% of the time.
Presumably to do with being aerial mounting a large antenna on the bus
roof where it has a good view of the sky, rather than the tiny
internal one in consumer gear that gets blocked by the car roof.

Is there a way to tell if a bus is using iBus data or Countdown. Have
any iBus-based displays even been deployed yet?

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:54:58 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant
wrote:

On 11 Apr, 19:04, Tom Anderson wrote:
Provided that the bus can get good GPS and GPRS signals. GPS is
notoriously inaccurate in built-up areas, as buildings block lines of
sight to the satellites, and introduce reflections which confuse the
receiver (like ghosting on the telly). I wonder what they're doing to deal
with this?

I've read a TfL paper that I can't find right now that found it to be
surprisingly accurate, something like dead on 98% of the time.
Presumably to do with being aerial mounting a large antenna on the bus
roof where it has a good view of the sky, rather than the tiny
internal one in consumer gear that gets blocked by the car roof.

My general experience of I-Bus has been good even though my route runs
out of the first garage equipped with it so we've had all the bugs and
changes to contend with. There is still the odd bus with non functioning
displays or visual but no audible (or vice versa) announcements. Only
twice has something really silly happened - the first was leaving Wood
Green and I-Bus believing we were still heading there. Even when we
passed ourselves going the other way (IYSWIM) the system did not correct
itself. The other was the system seeming to be completely dead and then
suddenly springing into life after leaving a stop. I have no idea how
GPS works but if it uses any form of cellular pattern to locate a
vehicle I did wonder if we had crossed from one cell to another in the
second example.

Is there a way to tell if a bus is using iBus data or Countdown. Have
any iBus-based displays even been deployed yet?

I-Bus equipped vehicles have a blue and yellow sticker in the
windscreen. There is also a console in the cab - typically just above
and to the right of the driver's head - and this shows the headway gap
and schedule "divergence" on a display to the driver.

I am not aware of a way of knowing if a bus is Countdown equipped as the
bus mounted kit is on the rear axle AIUI. This is one reason for the
unreliability of the system - hard to maintain and takes hours to fix
and means the bus is off the road. Not what an operator under a
performance based contract wants.

I am not aware that any Countdown displays have been integrated into the
I-Bus system yet - I think this part of the project is running late.
Certainly we have some local Countdown displays that are on I-Bus
equipped routes and I have not noticed any substantial change or
improvement to the data. There will be a further 2000 stop displays as
part of I-Bus but this phase is only just out to tender. I don't know if
it incorporates the integration of existing displays as part of the
scope or if it is simply the displays themselves and installation.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, Mr Thant wrote:

On 11 Apr, 19:04, Tom Anderson wrote:

Provided that the bus can get good GPS and GPRS signals. GPS is
notoriously inaccurate in built-up areas, as buildings block lines of
sight to the satellites, and introduce reflections which confuse the
receiver (like ghosting on the telly). I wonder what they're doing to deal
with this?

I've read a TfL paper that I can't find right now that found it to be
surprisingly accurate, something like dead on 98% of the time.
Presumably to do with being aerial mounting a large antenna on the bus
roof where it has a good view of the sky, rather than the tiny
internal one in consumer gear that gets blocked by the car roof.

Sounds plausible. Also, you don't need an accurate fix all the time: even
if you can only get one every fifty metres, it might do; you could fill in
with dead reckoning in between.

tom

--
The MAtrix had evarything in it: guns, a juimping off teh walls, flying
guns, a bullet tiem, evil computar machenes, numbers that flew, flying
gun bullets in slowar motian, juimping into a gun, dead police men,
computar hackeing, Kevin Mitnick, oven trailers, a old womans kitchen,
stairs, mature women in clotheing, head spark plugs, mechaanical squids,
Japaneseses assasins, tiem traval, volcanos, a monstar, slow time at
fastar speed, magic, wizzards, some dirty place, Kung Few, fighting,
a lot of mess explodsians EVARYWHERE, and just about anything else yuo
can names!