"Neil Williams" wrote:

Read in the Lite today that Moir Lockhead is warning Boris about the
plan to reintroduce Routemasters - and is trying to peddle him the
"ftr", which is, umm, a glorified bendy bus.

Will First never learn? In my experience, their buses in London are
some of the oldest, dirtiest and most poorly-maintained. Not a good
start.

He also said that bus passengers and operators like the bendies - it's other
road users (ie cabbies and cyclists, I guess) who detest them.

Now the election is over, I fully expect this 'new Routemaster' stuff to be
quietly shelved. This would represent the biggest U-turn
since.....well......Ken promised never to scrap the Routemaster!

Chris

On May 14, 8:53*pm, "Chris Read" wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote:
Read in the Lite today that Moir Lockhead is warning Boris about the
plan to reintroduce Routemasters - and is trying to peddle him the
"ftr", which is, umm, a glorified bendy bus.

Will First never learn? *In my experience, their buses in London are
some of the oldest, dirtiest and most poorly-maintained. *Not a good
start.

He also said that bus passengers and operators like the bendies - it's other
road users (ie cabbies and cyclists, I guess) who detest them.

No, he is just wrong. Most passengers don't like them either, and I
can't believe it's much fun for the drivers except if they are paid
more for coping with them.

Operators may like the idea of not having to collect fares, but that
is independent of the shape of the bus.

And don't forget pedestrians, whose crossings are constantly blocked
by them.


Now the election is over, I fully expect this 'new Routemaster' stuff to be
quietly shelved. This would represent the biggest U-turn
since.....well......Ken promised never to scrap the Routemaster!

But why should we accept that the choice is between bendys and
Routemasters? I'm sure I remember a few generations of other designs
in between and since ...

MIG wrote:

No, he is just wrong. Most passengers don't like them either, and I
can't believe it's much fun for the drivers except if they are paid
more for coping with them.

Operators may like the idea of not having to collect fares, but that
is independent of the shape of the bus.

And don't forget pedestrians, whose crossings are constantly blocked
by them.

Constantly? Where?

Personally, they're just a bloody bus, I don't detest or like them any
more than any other bus and regard the way whole furore became the only
transport issue ever debated as completely inexplicable.

My gut feeling is that the bendies will be put out to pasture when their
natural life is up, which may be from about 2012 onwards (I'm assuming
average bus life in London as being about ten years, but bendies serving
intensive routes may tire faster and I doubt there's a political
appetite for spending cash on refurbishment). The replacements should
be trams which have the advantages of high capacity and speed of
boarding and add greater attraction to switching motorists zero local
emissions. The replacements will probably be large numbers of
conventional double deckers.

Tom

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:23:19PM +0100, Tom Barry wrote:

My gut feeling is that the bendies will be put out to pasture when their
natural life is up, which may be from about 2012 onwards (I'm assuming
average bus life in London as being about ten years ...

apart from Routemasters, of course, which were still going strong after
as near as damnit 50 years - yes, admittedly with a couple of major
refurbs and with regular maintenance, but the only reason that a modern
bus wouldn't last 50 years if looked after would be because it's a crap
bus built down to a price instead of built to do the job properly.

--
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

More people are driven insane through religious hysteria than
by drinking alcohol. -- W C Fields

"Tom Barry" wrote in message
...
MIG wrote:

No, he is just wrong. Most passengers don't like them either, and I
can't believe it's much fun for the drivers except if they are paid
more for coping with them.

Operators may like the idea of not having to collect fares, but that
is independent of the shape of the bus.

And don't forget pedestrians, whose crossings are constantly blocked
by them.

Constantly? Where?

Personally, they're just a bloody bus, I don't detest or like them any
more than any other bus and regard the way whole furore became the only
transport issue ever debated as completely inexplicable.

My gut feeling is that the bendies will be put out to pasture when their
natural life is up, which may be from about 2012 onwards (I'm assuming
average bus life in London as being about ten years, but bendies serving
intensive routes may tire faster

Or more likely, London rejects will be inflicted on places like Leeds,
Glasgow, Manchester, etc., as has happened with double deckers when Ken &
successor decide they are too old for London.

Bevan

On Sat, 17 May 2008 20:14:58 +0100, "Bevan Price"
meVIAfreeukFULLSTOPcom wrote:


"Tom Barry" wrote in message
...

My gut feeling is that the bendies will be put out to pasture when their
natural life is up, which may be from about 2012 onwards (I'm assuming
average bus life in London as being about ten years, but bendies serving
intensive routes may tire faster

Or more likely, London rejects will be inflicted on places like Leeds,
Glasgow, Manchester, etc., as has happened with double deckers when Ken &
successor decide they are too old for London.

Very unlikely as none of them are owned by the big groups so they won't
cascade via that route. They are all leased and may end up almost
anywhere but given the three door layout it's most probable they'll end
up doing airport transfers or similar. If they can be converted to two
door then they may have more utility for other UK operators.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

Very unlikely as none of them are owned by the big groups so they won't
cascade via that route. They are all leased and may end up almost
anywhere but given the three door layout it's most probable they'll end
up doing airport transfers or similar. If they can be converted to two
door then they may have more utility for other UK operators.

Hmm, good point. The leasing companies will presumably expect to be
compensated if you want to hand them back early, unless they've been
remiss with the contracts (particularly given that right-hand-drive
Citaro Gs aren't in huge demand, so finding an alternative user is
problematic). Therefore you have the possibility of a Mayor elected on
a platform of better financial control spending money to return a leased
bus fleet early and then spending more money replacing it with more
labour-intensive hardware that costs more to run, purely because of his
personal antipathy to the design.

Have I missed anything? Obviously it would be nice to know who's signed
up to what (TfL presumably signed something saying we'll have x number
of buses for y years at z pounds/year but the details may be important)
but I doubt anyone will tell us.

Tom

On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:21:39 +0100, Tom Barry
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

Very unlikely as none of them are owned by the big groups so they won't
cascade via that route. They are all leased and may end up almost
anywhere but given the three door layout it's most probable they'll end
up doing airport transfers or similar. If they can be converted to two
door then they may have more utility for other UK operators.

Hmm, good point. The leasing companies will presumably expect to be
compensated if you want to hand them back early, unless they've been
remiss with the contracts (particularly given that right-hand-drive
Citaro Gs aren't in huge demand, so finding an alternative user is
problematic). Therefore you have the possibility of a Mayor elected on
a platform of better financial control spending money to return a leased
bus fleet early and then spending more money replacing it with more
labour-intensive hardware that costs more to run, purely because of his
personal antipathy to the design.

I doubt the leasing companies will have missed a trick. Some of the
spare ex Selkent bendies are going to Arriva to bolster some North
London routes and I think some others are going to the 25 (not 100% sure
on that). Others have gone back to Dawson Rentals. The acid test will
be what the hell happens to the retendering of the Red Arrows - they are
out to tender now but the new contract starts in a year's time. Artics
make a lot of sense on those routes given the heavy peak flows. I
personally can't see them being replaced by deckers so we'd be back to
rigid single decks but needing more of them than currently. I don't see
how that is value for money.

I don't think there is any real financial logic to the Boris Bus Plans
but then there is no logic to the policy at all given, as you say, it is
based on personal antipathy. This is the worst basis on which to make
policy.

Have I missed anything? Obviously it would be nice to know who's signed
up to what (TfL presumably signed something saying we'll have x number
of buses for y years at z pounds/year but the details may be important)
but I doubt anyone will tell us.

I have never seen anything published that shows vehicle leasing costs or
who the contracts are with. The operators sort out the vehicles but have
to comply with TfL's general specs as well as the specific contract
terms for each route. TfL simply pay a performance adjusted contract fee
- the annualised cost per route is typically shown on the bus tender
awards page. However costs can become "murky" if a group discount tender
is awarded where the operator offers a lower price if it wins several
routes in one tranche. I doubt FOI would work either as commercial
confidentiality certainly applies to the monetary amounts in what is a
competitive tendering process.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , at 20:38:53 on
Sat, 17 May 2008, Paul Corfield remarked:
They are all leased and may end up almost anywhere but given the three
door layout

Why can't one set of doors simply be disabled?
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news
In message , at 20:38:53 on
Sat, 17 May 2008, Paul Corfield remarked:
They are all leased and may end up almost anywhere but given the three
door layout

Why can't one set of doors simply be disabled?
--
Roland Perry

I've often wondered if drivers can separately control each set of doors on
bendibusses.

It seems that they can control the front door separately, while the rear two
always work in sync.

Why also have they put in a delay between when passengers push the stop
button and the bell actually ringing? Earlier, as soon as you pushed the
button, the bell would immediately ring.