On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:38:15 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.

There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.

Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.

Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.

Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you
don't like it.

I am fitting in. I buy my ticket to London whether by train or plane
and use my Oyster card (which is brilliant by the way) when I get
there. I am perfectly happy.

I think other people should fit in and stop whingeing.

Scott wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:38:15 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.
There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.
Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.

Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.
Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you
don't like it.

I am fitting in. I buy my ticket to London whether by train or plane
and use my Oyster card (which is brilliant by the way) when I get
there. I am perfectly happy.

I think other people should fit in and stop whingeing.

Who was whingeing? I'm happy to use the system the way it is. I'm not
the one who suggested that things be changed to suit me.
--
Michael Hoffman

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:13:39 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:38:15 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.
There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.
Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.

Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.
Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you
don't like it.

I am fitting in. I buy my ticket to London whether by train or plane
and use my Oyster card (which is brilliant by the way) when I get
there. I am perfectly happy.

I think other people should fit in and stop whingeing.

Who was whingeing? I'm happy to use the system the way it is. I'm not
the one who suggested that things be changed to suit me.

Those wanting to obstruct the use of Oyster by raising esoteric
objections.

I think that making Oyser available on the trains in the London area
would suit a large number of people as well as me. If rationalising
the ticket system helps drive this forward then I'm all for it.

I don't live in london BTW but I accept that it is reasonable that I
should get myself into London and use the benefits of the Oyster card
when I get there. I don't expect a £1.30 reduction in the price of my
ticket because I have an Oyster card that would cover the last 8
miles.

"Scott" wrote
Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

I actually guess there will always be a need for the ODTC if only
to
appease the ATOC in ticket issuing.

Maybe or maybe not. Depends on what the agreement says and what
the
revenue sharing arrangements are. I understand it will be part of
each new franchise to participate in Oyster.

Is that just the franchises that have stations within the Travelcard
zones?

Incidentally, has anyone ever produced a map showing the outer limits
for the availability of the Outboundary (by definition, zones 1-6)
ODTC? I presume it's at the whim of the individual TOC. For
example, I know you can get one from Newark, but not from Retford.
The staff at Retford *think* they can sell one, but what they
actually sell is a normal ticket to London plus a choice of various
LU tickets or inboundary (not necessarily all zones) ODTC, which is
not the same thing at all - a point that seems to be lost on some of
the posters in this thread.

How does one find out what revenue sharing arrangement NXEC has for
the Outboundary ODTC it issues?

"John Salmon" wrote in message
...
"Scott" wrote
Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

I actually guess there will always be a need for the ODTC if only to
appease the ATOC in ticket issuing.

Maybe or maybe not. Depends on what the agreement says and what the
revenue sharing arrangements are. I understand it will be part of
each new franchise to participate in Oyster.

Is that just the franchises that have stations within the Travelcard
zones?

SWT were one of if not the first to be required to introduce 'Smartcard'
ticketing throughout their franchise, this is supposed to be ITSO
compatible, and also Oyster compatible within the London zonal fare area.

That isn't as straightforward as just being required to introduce Oyster
PAYG, though apparently that is exactly what they are doing, at least within
the zones.

Paul

On Jun 30, 7:10*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"John Salmon" wrote in message

...

"Scott" wrote
Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

I actually guess there will always be a need for the ODTC if only to
appease the ATOC in ticket issuing.

Maybe or maybe not. *Depends on what the agreement says and what the
revenue sharing arrangements are. *I understand it will be part of
each new franchise to participate in Oyster.

Is that just the franchises that have stations within the Travelcard
zones?

SWT were one of if not the first to be required to introduce 'Smartcard'
ticketing throughout their franchise, this is supposed to be ITSO
compatible, and also Oyster compatible within the London zonal fare area.

That isn't as straightforward as just being required to introduce Oyster
PAYG, though apparently that is exactly what they are doing, at least within
the zones.


And is it not the case that Oyster is being (/to be) made ITSO
compatible (see Informed Sources passim in Modern Railways). If and
when this happens and ITSO has been rolled out to all franchises then
the out of zone one day Travelcard should be available on these
smartcards. Of course, this assumes that the ITSO system can cope with
doing it.

On 30 Jun, 20:23, Andy wrote:
And is it not the case that Oyster is being (/to be) made ITSO
compatible (see Informed Sources passim in Modern Railways). If and
when this happens and ITSO has been rolled out to all franchises then
the out of zone one day Travelcard should be available on these
smartcards. Of course, this assumes that the ITSO system can cope with
doing it.

As I understand it the plan is to add ITSO to the gateline readers, so
that ITSO products can open them. Whether Oyster will be switched over
to ITSO remains a bit of question mark. But outboundary day
travelcards would be a logical ITSO product.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 30 Jun, 17:33, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:13:39 +0100, Michael Hoffman





wrote:
Scott wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:38:15 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
news:dluf64dtv49eatav0onpv2uc2f35q2tvv4@4ax .com...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. *An interesting point that I had not thought of. *But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. *That was the question. *I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. *I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. *I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.
There are winners and losers in every change. *Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. *Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. *There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. *It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.
Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.

Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.
Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you
don't like it.

I am fitting in. *I buy my ticket to London whether by train or plane
and use my Oyster card (which is brilliant by the way) when I get
there. *I am perfectly happy.

I think other people should fit in and stop whingeing.

Who was whingeing? I'm happy to use the system the way it is. I'm not
the one who suggested that things be changed to suit me.

Those wanting to obstruct the use of Oyster by raising esoteric
objections.

No one is trying to do that. However, the authorities seem to be
trying to obstruct the use of existing ticket types by living in a
fantasy world where Oyster provides an alternative, when it does not
(yet [if ever]).

In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not

the ODTC + return journey to the zone edge option will still
exist. Unless Oyster is going to be rolled in the provinces
then folks out there will still need to be able to buy this
Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the
journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will

the discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this

out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an
add-on to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is
about 3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

Lucky you. If you are a FCC GN user you will find those figures are
rather higher for some reason. From Cambridge it's £6 or £3.95 with a
railcard. Even Thameslink FCC customers don't get so ripped-off.

For me that means I need to know how many tube journeys I'm going to make
before I buy my ticket in Cambridge. The other day I bought a travelcard
thinking I would make three tube journeys. I only made two, which would
have cost £3.00 on Oyster so I lost out. Another time my daughter got a
day return and used Oyster. She was capped with 3 tube journeys but at
more than £3.95. Infuriating, and as far as I can see an FCC, not TfL,
decision!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 09:24:27AM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:38:44 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:
There is that. But I can see LUL wanting to do away with magstripe
tickets completely as it'd save them money in maintaining the
barriers.
Won't happen because of the through ticketing arrangements across
London. TfL may end up issuing a tiny amount of magnetic tickets but I
don't see a move towards complete removal. You might get certain
walkways being Oyster only but probably only at the biggest stations.

If the volume of cross-London transfers is small enough, it would
probably make sense to get rid of the magstripe readers and just have
a member of staff open a gate manually when required. All gate lines
are supposed to be staffed (or when not staffed, left open) and they
already do this for, eg, partially sighted passengers.

--
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

"IMO, the primary historical significance of Unix is that it marks the
time in computer history where CPUs became so cheap that it was possible
to build an operating system without adult supervision."
-- Russ Holsclaw in a.f.c