On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

tim

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.

I am sure most passengers have no interest in 'out-boundary
Travelcards', 'zone edge options' or anything else. They just want ot
get from A to B. What we need is a simply system that is easy to
understand and easy to use.

Oyster card is the way forward. Bring it on.

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.

Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.
--
Michael Hoffman

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.

Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.

There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London. Those living
elsewhere just have to fit in. If you live in Edinburgh you have to
get yourself to London and get a ticket when you get there and I don't
see why anyone else should be treated differently. Everyone has the
option to buy an Oyser card so there is no discrimination against
non-Londoners in that respect.

It is now recognised that one of the biggest problems with the rail
system is the complexity of the fares. Look at the simplification
currently taking place with National Rail fares. We need to get rid
of outdated technical distinctions that are of interest to 'anoraks'
and move to a simple fare structure that users (and perhaps more
importantly non-users) can understand. If some pay a bit more and
others a bit less then so be it. That is what happened when the zones
were introduced. That is what happens to non Oyster users paying £4
on the tube instead of £1.50.

So I say as soon as National Rail services in the London area are
equipped with Oyster then Oyser card should become the only form of
One Day Travelcard. Bring it on.

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:36:05 +0100, Scott
wrote:

There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

[...]

So I say as soon as National Rail services in the London area are
equipped with Oyster then Oyser card should become the only form of
One Day Travelcard. Bring it on.

I would add "within London" to that... There is *no* reason at all
why "out-boundary" (from outside zone 6) paper One Day Travelcards
should not continue to exist - the same is true for
weekly/monthly/etc. - even if Oyster becomes the only way to get an
equivalent product within the zones.

Surely what we are discussing here is a sensible change TfL are making
to their own retailing arrangements, even if misunderstood by some
agents, and nothing to do with the train companies and what happens on
National Rail.

Richard.

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.

There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.

Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.

Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.

Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you
don't like it.
--
Michael Hoffman

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:38:15 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.

There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.

Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.

Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.

Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you
don't like it.

I am fitting in. I buy my ticket to London whether by train or plane
and use my Oyster card (which is brilliant by the way) when I get
there. I am perfectly happy.

I think other people should fit in and stop whingeing.

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not
the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will
the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

I'm answering the question that was asked:

"how much more is an 'add on' zone 1 ticket from outside Zone 6 than a SDR
to London"

tim

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:34:48 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not
the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will
the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

I'm answering the question that was asked:

"how much more is an 'add on' zone 1 ticket from outside Zone 6 than a SDR
to London"

tim

Sorry, I misread it late at night. I was not thinking about
Railcards. I see what you mean. So it is £1.30 less than the capping
that would be applied by the Oyser card (which would charge £4.80).

As I said in my other posting there will be winners and losers in any
change, but some passengers paying an extra £1.30 seems to me a small
price to pay for all the benefits that flexible cashless ticketing
brings.