I'm quite surprised nobody's commented on this yet!

Not only is there a whole new section of the TfL site devoted to it
(http://tinyurl.com/5euecn), they've even produced detailed
specifications for the 'serious' competition in proper house style.
These look very businesslike and impressive, with the occasional bit
of humour (Articulated design: No. Doors/Apertures: 1 open platform at
nearside). It's at http://tinyurl.com/6gnvpt if anyone's interested.

I know Autocar magazine sponsored a design company (Capoco?) to come
up with a New Routemaster concept a while back - I wonder if they will
enter it. Otherwise, I can't see any of the bus builders taking this
as anything other than the humorous whim of a bored politician...

Rupert Candy wrote:
I'm quite surprised nobody's commented on this yet!

Not only is there a whole new section of the TfL site devoted to it
(http://tinyurl.com/5euecn), they've even produced detailed
specifications for the 'serious' competition in proper house style.
These look very businesslike and impressive, with the occasional bit
of humour (Articulated design: No. Doors/Apertures: 1 open platform at
nearside). It's at http://tinyurl.com/6gnvpt if anyone's interested.

I know Autocar magazine sponsored a design company (Capoco?) to come
up with a New Routemaster concept a while back - I wonder if they will
enter it. Otherwise, I can't see any of the bus builders taking this
as anything other than the humorous whim of a bored politician...

Bored? It's the only transport policy he's shown any interest in (I'm
including the extra security on buses and tubes as a crime policy here).
He's deadly serious, although buried yesterday was some sort of
announcement that the first three bendy lines will go double-deck next
year on contract re-award (the 38 was mentioned, anyone know the other
two? Six lines have contracts expiring in 2009; 12, 25, 38, 73, 507,
521 - I'd like to see them try and operate the last two as single door
entry double deckers).

However, if the bendies do go at contract re-award it means the 436 and
453 will still be bendy under the current contracts in 2013, having only
just been awarded this year.

The Autocar proposal was about the same size as a normal double-decker
but with a longer wheelbase, which presumably means it's actually *less*
maneouvrable. I'm not sure how serious it was meant to be, and in any
case it was hideous.

I still think it's a total waste of everyone's time though - far more
important things to do; where's ELLX Phase 2 then?

Tom

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:08:15 +0100, Tom Barry
wrote:

Rupert Candy wrote:
I'm quite surprised nobody's commented on this yet!

Not only is there a whole new section of the TfL site devoted to it
(http://tinyurl.com/5euecn), they've even produced detailed
specifications for the 'serious' competition in proper house style.
These look very businesslike and impressive, with the occasional bit
of humour (Articulated design: No. Doors/Apertures: 1 open platform at
nearside). It's at http://tinyurl.com/6gnvpt if anyone's interested.

I know Autocar magazine sponsored a design company (Capoco?) to come
up with a New Routemaster concept a while back - I wonder if they will
enter it. Otherwise, I can't see any of the bus builders taking this
as anything other than the humorous whim of a bored politician...

Bored? It's the only transport policy he's shown any interest in (I'm
including the extra security on buses and tubes as a crime policy here).

I wish he would come up with something that resembled a transport
policy. I'm heartily fed up with this tokenistic tinkering.

He's deadly serious, although buried yesterday was some sort of
announcement that the first three bendy lines will go double-deck next
year on contract re-award (the 38 was mentioned, anyone know the other
two? Six lines have contracts expiring in 2009; 12, 25, 38, 73, 507,
521 - I'd like to see them try and operate the last two as single door
entry double deckers).

I think they are referring to the 507 and 521 which are the earliest
tranche in the "out to tender" list. The 25 and 73 have been awarded 2
year extensions to 2011. The 38 is definitely up for retender as I
think the old crew contract was extended for 2 years to "finance" the
conversion to bendy. TfL don't extend contracts beyond 7 years and
always retender school, tendered gross contract and all cross boundary
services after 5 years.

Quite why on earth the sensible use of bendy buses on routes like the
18, 25, 29, 149 and 207 should be stopped when they do a far better job
that the previous double decks in terms of getting people on and off
fast and then getting on their way I don't know. People have short
memories of how bad the former double deck routes were in terms of dwell
times, bunching and curtailments.

All we'll get are high density single decks on the former Red Arrows
with virtually no seats in them - think back to the old Nationals.
People will have worse crush conditions and fewer seats - think of the
typical single deck in a city like Rome which has 3 door rigid Citaros
with very few seats in them.

I think we'll just get conventional double decks on everything else
because TfL's budget constraints will mean that it will not be able to
afford to fund much higher numbers of untried custom vehicles on former
bendy routes. I could tolerate something like 12m tri-axles or something
swish like the Berlin Lion City big double decks but I don't think they
would fit on some of the routes like the 38 and 73. Worse still given
people's great reluctance to go upstairs on double decks these days I
can see any replacement design being less effective because it'll be
crammed full downstairs with seats available upstairs but people will
have to wait longer as drivers will simply be unable to get people
through the lower deck crush.

I can't see operators wishing to buy a completely untried design for a 5
or possible 7 year term. This is just a repeat of the old LT bus design
experiments that have gone wrong time after time after time.

However, if the bendies do go at contract re-award it means the 436 and
453 will still be bendy under the current contracts in 2013, having only
just been awarded this year.

And possibly through to 2015 if extensions are granted.

The Autocar proposal was about the same size as a normal double-decker
but with a longer wheelbase, which presumably means it's actually *less*
maneouvrable. I'm not sure how serious it was meant to be, and in any
case it was hideous.

I still think it's a total waste of everyone's time though - far more
important things to do; where's ELLX Phase 2 then?

Precisely. The Borismaster is a waste of time and public money based on
a personal prejudice of the Mayor and an unhinged press campaign. And
yes can we please have the go ahead for ELLX Phase 2 as soon as
possible.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:08:15 +0100, Tom Barry
wrote:

Six lines have contracts expiring in 2009; 12, 25, 38, 73, 507,
521 - I'd like to see them try and operate the last two as single door
entry double deckers).

Might the 507 and 521 work with Berlin-style 3-door full-length (12m?)
3 axle deckers with stairs at both front and rear? I think that might
have some potential.

Single-entry buses of any kind are not a good way of shifting crowds.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:24:22 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:08:15 +0100, Tom Barry
wrote:

Six lines have contracts expiring in 2009; 12, 25, 38, 73, 507,
521 - I'd like to see them try and operate the last two as single door
entry double deckers).

Might the 507 and 521 work with Berlin-style 3-door full-length (12m?)
3 axle deckers with stairs at both front and rear? I think that might
have some potential.

13.7m IIRC. Buses of that length would not get round Horseferry Road or
turn at Waterloo round to the garage area. I like the concept but it
wouldn't work and I suspect the 4m height with its "squashed" upper deck
ceiling would be very unpopular in the UK.

Single-entry buses of any kind are not a good way of shifting crowds.

Agreed

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 5 Jul, 13:43, Paul Corfield wrote:
13.7m IIRC. *Buses of that length would not get round Horseferry Road or
turn at Waterloo round to the garage area. *

The design rules do allow a 13.5m maximum length and more than one
staircase, so something similar could win.

I like the concept but it
wouldn't work and I suspect the 4m height with its "squashed" upper deck
ceiling would be very unpopular in the UK.

There's a 1.78m headroom requirement per deck.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Jul 5, 1:24*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:08:15 +0100, Tom Barry
wrote:

Six lines have contracts expiring in 2009; 12, 25, 38, 73, 507,
521 - I'd like to see them try and operate the last two as single door
entry double deckers).

Might the 507 and 521 work with Berlin-style 3-door full-length (12m?)
3 axle deckers with stairs at both front and rear? *I think that might
have some potential.

Single-entry buses of any kind are not a good way of shifting crowds.

Surely the need for single entry is to do with having to show
something to the driver, and has nothing to do with the shape and
flexibility of the bus.

This requirement also results in people having to squeeze through the
most narrow part of the bus and conflict with people coming down the
stairs.

So presumably the competition ought to be to design something that
avoids these problems, now that we are out of the habit of showing
things to drivers on certain routes.

In message , Tom Barry
writes
Rupert Candy wrote:
I'm quite surprised nobody's commented on this yet!
Not only is there a whole new section of the TfL site devoted to it
(http://tinyurl.com/5euecn), they've even produced detailed
specifications for the 'serious' competition in proper house style.
These look very businesslike and impressive, with the occasional bit
of humour (Articulated design: No. Doors/Apertures: 1 open platform at
nearside). It's at http://tinyurl.com/6gnvpt if anyone's interested.
I know Autocar magazine sponsored a design company (Capoco?) to come
up with a New Routemaster concept a while back - I wonder if they will
enter it. Otherwise, I can't see any of the bus builders taking this
as anything other than the humorous whim of a bored politician...

Bored? It's the only transport policy he's shown any interest in

Not quite. He recently went out late at night (think it was a Friday) in
a taxi together with lady from a rape crisis (or something like it)
unit and was shown the extant that the unlicensed touts were completely
ignoring the law and potentially putting 'vulnerable' (i.e drunken hence
the use of the commas!) women in danger.

The best part of the story was that one minicab driver was seen
blatantly picking up illegally and when challenged by the lady in the
taxi gave her a load of verbal abuse including several swear words!

Boris has promised to double the number of officers employed on specific
enforcement from 34 to 68. I doubt if that will be enough but it is a
start.

--
Mike Hughes
A Taxi driver licensed for London and Brighton
at home in Tarring, West Sussex, England
Interested in American trains real and model?
Look here http://mikehughes627.fotopic.net/

On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:25:12 +0100, Mike Hughes
wrote:

Boris has promised to double the number of officers employed on specific
enforcement from 34 to 68. I doubt if that will be enough but it is a
start.

Why can the general police not make some progress in enforcing this?
After all, a crime is, in my understanding, being committed.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In message , at 14:33:30 on Sun,
6 Jul 2008, Neil Williams remarked:
Boris has promised to double the number of officers employed on specific
enforcement from 34 to 68. I doubt if that will be enough but it is a
start.

Why can the general police not make some progress in enforcing this?
After all, a crime is, in my understanding, being committed.

It's common misconception that the "general police" enforce all
legislation. A desperately needed reform (IMHO) is that every Act of
Parliament should state clearly which agency is expected to enforce its
provisions.
--
Roland Perry