On 15 Sep, 22:24, wrote:
In article ,
* *Paul Scott wrote:

Ah yes, I hadn't spotted that they were running to Euston on Sundays.
I can see how stoppng LM services at Queens Park would be affected by
paths, but I wonder how Sundays are so different for LO/Bakerloo.

Why are they running to EUS on Sunday?
That's exactly what 'MIG' originally asked a few posts ago. It's
timetabled, but no one has said for sure why it can be on Sundays, but
not on weekdays. It must be that there are only so many paths from
Camden Junction to Queens Park, and the Stratford services use them
all. As there are less Stratfords on Sun, and possibly less freight?,
presumably they can add back a Euston or two...

As I understand it, it's shortage of rolling stock which needs the Euston
trains to go to Stratford. With fewer trains on a Sunday there are some
available to go to Euston.
for a 2 o
--
David Wild using RISC OS on broadbandwww.davidhwild.me.uk

I am told by a London Overground informant that the problem is paths
between Queens Park and Stonebridge Park
Apparently they did try to deliver a Euston - Willesden Junction
shuttle but could not find necessary paths for a 2 or 3 train hour
service

Neil

Thought I posted this earlier but it doesn't seem to have
appearred.....

On 16 Sep, 18:55, "Paul Scott" wrote:
somersetchris wrote:
Not quadrupling through Camden Rd will create a very nasty pinch
point. As soon as trains get west of Camden Rd they are effectively on
four track anyway (2 via Gospel Oak and 2 via Primrose Hill). With it
also effectively going to be 4 tracks east of Dalston (2 to New Cross
and 2 to Stratford) what is needed is 4 tracks between Dalston and
Camden Rd. This is going to remove a lot of pathways for freight and
non LOROL trains from the NLL.

There would still have been a 2 track junction (pinch point) at the west end
of Camden Rd anyway.

Given the works to be/being performed to enlarge the Hampstead tunnel
and bridges on the Gospel Oak routes to enable more freight to reach
the WCML without crossing the GEML or using the NLL, could the NLL not
have effectively become a two track railway from Stratford to Gospel
Oak (all OLE), with the ELL being a segregated (all DC) two track
railway from Dalston to Queens Park/Watford? (ignoring the Bakerloo
reextension) All that would have been required is for the pinch point
to the west of Camden Road that was to remain in the original works to
be upgraded by widening the viaduct for 10-odd metres or so, and a
crossover would have enabled any remaining NLL freight to access
Primrose Hill as required. Said freight wouldn't have dedicated refuge
loops, but then most of it'd probably be running via the far quieter
Gospel Oak route instead.

If they do decide to revisit Camden to finish the job, I do hope they
consider the benefits of doing as much as they can at once given the
disruption it'll cause to the line.

On 16 Sep, 22:25, Jamie Thompson wrote:

Thought I posted this earlier but it doesn't seem to have
appearred.....

On 16 Sep, 18:55, "Paul Scott" wrote:

somersetchris wrote:
Not quadrupling through Camden Rd will create a very nasty pinch
point. As soon as trains get west of Camden Rd they are effectively on
four track anyway (2 via Gospel Oak and 2 via Primrose Hill). With it
also effectively going to be 4 tracks east of Dalston (2 to New Cross
and 2 to Stratford) what is needed is 4 tracks between Dalston and
Camden Rd. This is going to remove a lot of pathways for freight and
non LOROL trains from the NLL.

There would still have been a 2 track junction (pinch point) at the west end
of Camden Rd anyway.

Given the works to be/being performed to enlarge the Hampstead tunnel
and bridges on the Gospel Oak routes to enable more freight to reach
the WCML without crossing the GEML or using the NLL, could the NLL not
have effectively become a two track railway from Stratford to Gospel
Oak (all OLE), with the ELL being a segregated (all DC) two track
railway from Dalston to Queens Park/Watford? (ignoring the Bakerloo
reextension) *All that would have been required is for the pinch point
to the west of Camden Road that was to remain in the original works to
be upgraded by widening the viaduct for 10-odd metres or so, and a
crossover would have enabled any remaining NLL freight to access
Primrose Hill as required. Said freight wouldn't have dedicated refuge
loops, but then most of it'd probably be running via the far quieter
Gospel Oak route instead.


That's an interesting idea, one I've not come across before (at least
not in that exact form). We've certainly discussed four tracking to
the west of Camden Road before (actually in the context of sending
Eurostars from the CTRL/HS1 along the NLL then via Primrose Hill and
up the WCML), which would require minimal acquisition of land and
demolition of property (it'd cause considerable disruption whilst it
was being constructed, but you can't make an omelette... etc).
Possible problems are freight blocking up the GOBLIN route - the LO
passenger services are set to become more frequent - and also the
freight crossing at the junction onto the Primrose Hill route.

Arguably the problem here is the freight trains - without them then
the DC lines to Watford would more or less become an extension of the
ELL with some Bakerloo trains along for the ride as well, especially
if one sacrificed the DC line service to Euston - and arguably one
could ditch the Bakerloo line service as well, as the frequent LO
service could possibly be sufficient. But add in the freight trains
and the potential for delays increases - though the voice of reality
in the back of my head is saying that even without freights, there's
more than enough that might go wrong. The absolutely critical thing
for ELL trains is that they hit their slot on the mainline to Croydon
- if they don't, then they put a spanner in the works for the rest of
the Southern Region (well, the south central division at least).


If they do decide to revisit Camden to finish the job, I do hope they
consider the benefits of doing as much as they can at once given the
disruption it'll cause to the line.


I absolutely agree. The other problem with saying things like 'well
one day they can revisit this should the need for it grow' (as I did
upthread) is that the momentum gets lost and nothing ever happens...
I'm just hoping that ELLX phase 2 doesn't wither and die in this
manner. (The cynic in me says that, despite Boris' pronouncements of
its importance, the electoral landscape of this part of south London
might mean that pushing this through is not a top priority, though of
course it is the Treasury that holds the purse strings on this one -
make it happen, Darling!).

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

As I understand it, it's shortage of rolling stock which needs the Euston
trains to go to Stratford. With fewer trains on a Sunday there are some
available to go to Euston.

I don't think it is lack of rolling stock, as there are sufficient
units spare (for starters, all three class 508s are available) to run
at least a Euston - Willesden Jcn shuttle. However, there would be a
probably be a lack of paths between Queens Park and Willesden Junction
due to the increased Bakerloo service at least during the peaks.-

I was just gonna say, presumably the 508s can't be used for any
services other than into Euston, and with so many lines closed, there
can't be a shortage.

Can't Watford Junction to Stratford be done entirely on DC? (There's a
dual-electrified stretch where the 313s normally switch to AC, but
presumably DC can still be used.)

(Not that there can possibly be a stock shortage. If there's enough
stock to run the normal Euston-Watford and NLL services, then there's
enough to run Euston-Watford as normal and Stratford to Willesden Jn
going via Primrose Hill instead of West Hampstead.)

On Sep 17, 7:20*am, asdf wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
As I understand it, it's shortage of rolling stock which needs the Euston
trains to go to Stratford. With fewer trains on a Sunday there are some
available to go to Euston.

I don't think it is lack of rolling stock, as there are sufficient
units spare (for starters, all three class 508s are available) to run
at least a Euston - Willesden Jcn shuttle. However, there would be a
probably be a lack of paths between Queens Park and Willesden Junction
due to the increased Bakerloo service at least during the peaks.-

I was just gonna say, presumably the 508s can't be used for any
services other than into Euston, and with so many lines closed, there
can't be a shortage.

Can't Watford Junction to Stratford be done entirely on DC? (There's a
dual-electrified stretch where the 313s normally switch to AC, but
presumably DC can still be used.)

(Not that there can possibly be a stock shortage. If there's enough
stock to run the normal Euston-Watford and NLL services, then there's
enough to run Euston-Watford as normal and Stratford to Willesden Jn
going via Primrose Hill instead of West Hampstead.)

I think you could get to Stratford Low Level on third rail, but is
that what they are using now?

On Sep 17, 7:20*am, asdf wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
As I understand it, it's shortage of rolling stock which needs the Euston
trains to go to Stratford. With fewer trains on a Sunday there are some
available to go to Euston.

I don't think it is lack of rolling stock, as there are sufficient
units spare (for starters, all three class 508s are available) to run
at least a Euston - Willesden Jcn shuttle. However, there would be a
probably be a lack of paths between Queens Park and Willesden Junction
due to the increased Bakerloo service at least during the peaks.-

I was just gonna say, presumably the 508s can't be used for any
services other than into Euston, and with so many lines closed, there
can't be a shortage.

Can't Watford Junction to Stratford be done entirely on DC? (There's a
dual-electrified stretch where the 313s normally switch to AC, but
presumably DC can still be used.)


I believe that it still can be, provided that the southern pair of
tracks are used from Camden to Dalston and that the low level
platforms are used at Stratford. However, I think that 508s wouldn't
be used, as they would be stranded if there was a problem meaning that
the service had to use either the northern pair of tracks or Stratford
high level.

Of course, the 508s might not have the correct paperwork anyway.

(Not that there can possibly be a stock shortage. If there's enough
stock to run the normal Euston-Watford and NLL services, then there's
enough to run Euston-Watford as normal and Stratford to Willesden Jn
going via Primrose Hill instead of West Hampstead.)

"MIG" wrote in message
...

I think you could get to Stratford Low Level on third rail, but is
that what they are using now?

Yes - they are still in the LL platforms, the new high level platforms are
supposed to be ready for the end of the year. The track laying towards the
new high level bays has just started I believe.

Paul S

On 17 Sep, 12:58, Andy wrote:
On Sep 17, 7:20*am, asdf wrote:





On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
As I understand it, it's shortage of rolling stock which needs the Euston
trains to go to Stratford. With fewer trains on a Sunday there are some
available to go to Euston.

I don't think it is lack of rolling stock, as there are sufficient
units spare (for starters, all three class 508s are available) to run
at least a Euston - Willesden Jcn shuttle. However, there would be a
probably be a lack of paths between Queens Park and Willesden Junction
due to the increased Bakerloo service at least during the peaks.-

I was just gonna say, presumably the 508s can't be used for any
services other than into Euston, and with so many lines closed, there
can't be a shortage.

Can't Watford Junction to Stratford be done entirely on DC? (There's a
dual-electrified stretch where the 313s normally switch to AC, but
presumably DC can still be used.)

I believe that it still can be, provided that the southern pair of
tracks are used from Camden to Dalston and that the low level
platforms are used at Stratford. However, I think that 508s wouldn't
be used, as they would be stranded if there was a problem meaning that
the service had to use either the northern pair of tracks or Stratford
high level.

Of course, the 508s might not have the correct paperwork anyway.


Yes, I was guessing that works and new platform arrangements at
Stratford would have made it impossible, but Paul S has given the
answer on that. I wonder if the third rail will be kept (and kept
usable) with all the work going on though.

On Sep 17, 7:20*am, asdf wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
As I understand it, it's shortage of rolling stock which needs the Euston
trains to go to Stratford. With fewer trains on a Sunday there are some
available to go to Euston.

I don't think it is lack of rolling stock, as there are sufficient
units spare (for starters, all three class 508s are available) to run
at least a Euston - Willesden Jcn shuttle. However, there would be a
probably be a lack of paths between Queens Park and Willesden Junction
due to the increased Bakerloo service at least during the peaks.-

I was just gonna say, presumably the 508s can't be used for any
services other than into Euston, and with so many lines closed, there
can't be a shortage.

Can't Watford Junction to Stratford be done entirely on DC? (There's a
dual-electrified stretch where the 313s normally switch to AC, but
presumably DC can still be used.)

(Not that there can possibly be a stock shortage. If there's enough
stock to run the normal Euston-Watford and NLL services, then there's
enough to run Euston-Watford as normal and Stratford to Willesden Jn
going via Primrose Hill instead of West Hampstead.)

The reason why the trains switch to AC is because trains using the DC
stretch along there would have to go at half power.

"somersetchris" wrote

The reason why the trains switch to AC is because trains using the DC
stretch along there would have to go at half power.

I suppose changing to AC at Dalston Kingsland and changing back at Hackney
Wick saves a minute in running time between those points. I suppose the
additional dwell time in changing between DC and AC at Dalston Kingsland and
Hackney Wick is about half a minute at each station.

Peter