Neil Williams wrote:

Are there any actual 2-car platforms on the GOBLIN? I thought they
were all far longer than the trains, hence my criticism of the use of
2-car DMUs when maybe 4 would be more suitable.

Quail gives the shortest platform as being South Tottenham Eastbound, at
3 coaches. Next shortest are Blackhorse Road (both roads) and South
Tottenham Westbound, at 4 coaches. Longest are Harringay Green Lanes
(both roads) at 11 coaches.

The Rules of the Plan, meanwhile, give the following platform lengths
(number of Class 150/1 vehicles, at 20.06m, in brackets):

Gospel Oak - Bay : 97m (4 vehicles)
Upper Holloway - Both : 124m (6 vehicles)
Crouch Hill - Both : 122m (6 vehicles)
Harringay Green Lanes - Both : 220m (10 vehicles)
South Tottenham - Eastbound : 52m (2 vehicles)
Westbound : 81m (4 vehicles)
Blackhorse Road - Both : 84m (4 vehicles)
Walthamstow Queens Road - Eastbound : 154m (7 vehicles)
Westbound : 181m (9 vehicles)
Leyton Midland Road - Both : 156m (7 vehicles)
Leytonstone High Road - Both : 163m (8 vehicles)
Wanstead Park - Both : 147m (7 vehicles)
Woodgrange Park - Both : 165m (8 vehicles)
Barking - Platform 1 : 183m (9 vehicles)

NB: The above are the *TOTAL* length, and do not necessarily represent
the *OPERATIONAL* length of the platforms in question.

Cheers,

Barry

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, Mr Thant wrote:

It looks to me like the centre cab door is opaque, so the monitors in
front of it aren't obscuring anything, and the monitor on the left of
the picture is against the side wall. There's a tiny window to the
left of it for seeing stopping marks and such. Pretty much the same
view as in other trains with cab-end doors.

Can the driver, or anyone else, see out of the right-hand window? Or
is that opaque too?

If people want to use the door, what happens to the monitors? Do they
fold out of the way or something?

Yes - that aspect is fairly standard on gangway fitted EMUs. The Electrostar
cabs have a fair amount of kit that gets repositioned (towards the drivers
seat) when the gangway between units is in use IIRC.

Paul S

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

ELLX2 would take the pressure off London Bridge at a very opportune
time - that of the Thameslink reconstruction - but the service that's
getting kicked out of London Bridge because there's not enough space,
the Victoria to LB South London Line service, is going to get a quasi-
replacement that will run from Victoria to Bellingham via Peckham Rye
(or at least that's the strong recommendation of the sarf lahndon
RUS). I just fear that the DfT might think that it has done its bit
with that and thus ignore calls for ELLX2.

So if I got to Denmark Hill station, how would I get to Central London
without the South London Line service?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 24 Sep, 20:47, Barry Salter wrote:
Neil Williams wrote:
Are there any actual 2-car platforms on the GOBLIN? *I thought they
were all far longer than the trains, hence my criticism of the use of
2-car DMUs when maybe 4 would be more suitable.

Quail gives the shortest platform as being South Tottenham Eastbound, at
3 coaches. Next shortest are Blackhorse Road (both roads) and South
Tottenham Westbound, at 4 coaches. Longest are Harringay Green Lanes
(both roads) at 11 coaches.

The Rules of the Plan, meanwhile, give the following platform lengths
(number of Class 150/1 vehicles, at 20.06m, in brackets):

* * * * * * * Gospel Oak - Bay : 97m (4 vehicles)
* * * * * Upper Holloway - Both : 124m (6 vehicles)
* * * * * * *Crouch Hill - Both : 122m (6 vehicles)
* *Harringay Green Lanes - Both : 220m (10 vehicles)
* * * * *South Tottenham - Eastbound : 52m (2 vehicles)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *Westbound : 81m (4 vehicles)
* * * * *Blackhorse Road - Both : 84m (4 vehicles)
Walthamstow Queens Road - Eastbound : 154m (7 vehicles)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *Westbound : 181m (9 vehicles)
* * *Leyton Midland Road - Both : 156m (7 vehicles)
* *Leytonstone High Road - Both : 163m (8 vehicles)
* * * * * *Wanstead Park - Both : 147m (7 vehicles)
* * * * *Woodgrange Park - Both : 165m (8 vehicles)
* * * * * * * * *Barking - Platform 1 : 183m (9 vehicles)

NB: The above are the *TOTAL* length, and do not necessarily represent
the *OPERATIONAL* length of the platforms in question.

Cheers,

Barry

So if I read that correctly, if you could lengthen the eastbound at
South Tottenham by doubling it (and looking at Google Maps shows no
apparent obstacles to extending that much eastwards - not to mention
you could probably get a few metres by going west up closer to the
bridge), you could have a four-car DMU service with little to no
*major* works?

On Sep 24, 7:48*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:18:54 -0700 (PDT), MIG

wrote:
Of course I have. *The layout on the Jubilee, for example, is awful,
with space for one and half people to stand between the end of the
seats and the first obstruction. *The C stock has so many doors that
it wouldn't really be possible to have both standing and sitting space
between them.

This is true, though that makes them awful trains to travel in when
there aren't enough seats, because when standing it is impossible not
to be in somebody's way.

I think something like the D stock layout would work best, but instead
of having those side-facing seats make that space a standback on both
sides of the doors. *This, if done as 3+2, would give almost as many
seats as a longitudinal arrangement but also a far better space for
standing in without being in people's way. *Even as 2+2 with wider
seats it'd give a better balance, IMO. *Maybe like SWT have done to
their 455s?

Yes, I think that the SWT 455 refurbishments are another example of
good design, and really show up the lack of thought that went into the
nearly new 376s.

A short section of transverse seating (so no one needs to queue to get
in and out of it) is an efficient way of making room for seated
passengers, because the knees can be at least as close to each other
as they ever could to a standing person, without the person opposite
dangling bags in one's face etc.

Jamie Thompson wrote:

So if I read that correctly, if you could lengthen the eastbound at
South Tottenham by doubling it (and looking at Google Maps shows no
apparent obstacles to extending that much eastwards - not to mention
you could probably get a few metres by going west up closer to the
bridge), you could have a four-car DMU service with little to no
*major* works?

The best bet for lengthening at South Tottenham would be at the East
end, but even then you haven't got much room to play with before the
junction.

It's been a while since I've been there, but ISTR the Westbound platform
extends right to the bridge over the High Road already, but the
Eastbound doesn't go all that far.

Cheers,

Barry

On 24 Sep, 22:04, wrote:

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

ELLX2 would take the pressure off London Bridge at a very opportune
time - that of the Thameslink reconstruction - but the service that's
getting kicked out of London Bridge because there's not enough space,
the Victoria to LB South London Line service, is going to get a quasi-
replacement that will run from Victoria to Bellingham via Peckham Rye
(or at least that's the strong recommendation of the sarf lahndon
RUS). I just fear that the DfT might think that it has done its bit
with that and thus ignore calls for ELLX2.

So if I got to Denmark Hill station, how would I get to Central London
without the South London Line service?


The South London Line isn't the only service that serves Denmark Hill.
I'll run through them - (these are off-peak service patters BTW,
there's a few extra rush hour trains to and from Victoria though none
of these are SLL services).

* The aforementioned South London Line (SLL) service - half-hourly
service calling at all stations between Victoria and London Bridge via
Peckham Rye. Runs seven days a week.

* Blackfriars to Sevenoaks service - half hourly service calling at
all stations from Blackfriars to Sevenoaks via Peckham Rye and
Swanley. Runs Monday to Saturday, on Sunday this service does run but
from Victoria rather than Blackfriars - hence it doesn't call at
Elephant & Castle, instead it runs fast between Victoria and Denmark
Hill.

* Victoria to Dartford service via Lewisham - half hourly service,
runs fast between Victoria and Denmark Hill then all stations to
Dartford via Lewisham and Bexleyheath. Runs Monday to Saturday only,
no Sunday service. Also this service finishes altogether in mid-
evening.

---

So, let's fast forward to the brave new world. The SLL service as it
stands is set to finish for three main reasons - (1) there's not going
to be enough space in the rebuilt London Bridge to accommodate it
because the station will have fewer terminating platforms;
(2) the main platforms at Battersea Park are set to be extended to
handle longer suburban trains - because of the layout of the station
this will mean that the extended platforms will foul the junction with
the SLL and hence SLL services are to be sacrificed to this end;
(3) the south central side of Victoria station is too busy, getting
rid of the SLL will provide more platform capacity for other suburban
services.

However, there is a plan for a replacement South London Line service -
I've called it "SLL2" before so I will do so again but do note that's
not its official name! SLL2 will run from the less congested south
eastern side of Victoria, it will completely bypass Battersea Park
station altogether by taking a different route, it will then call at
all stations from Wandsworth Road via Denmark Hill to Peckham Rye,
then instead of turning towards London Bridge it will carry on along
the Catford Loop line calling at Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford and
then terminate at Bellingham (where there are sidings it can make use
of).

In this new world there will not be any direct trains from Denmark
Hill to London Bridge - those wishing to make this journey by rail
will need to take the first train from DH to Peckham Rye then one of
the frequent services from there to London Bridge. Alternatively
people might wish to consider travelling by bus (route 40 from DH
station, or routes 35, 40 and 45 from Camberwell Green), or possibly
walking to/starting from Peckham Rye instead, if that's convenient.

Note that changes to the SLL service will not affect the Sevenoaks or
Dartford services.

---

*If* ELLX phase 2 gets the go-ahead then on top of the services
outlined above trains will run every 15 minutes on the route Clapham
Junction - Wandsworth Road - then all stations (i,e. Clapham High
Street - Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye) to Queen's Road Peckham - then
onto the new ELLX phase 2 route and call at the new Surrey Canal Road
station before a junction with the existing ELL route and Surrey Quays
station then on northwards.

ELLX phase 2 would not in itself provide any extra direct connections
to central London, but it would (a) provide extra trains between DH
and Peckham Rye for connections to London Bridge, and (b) provide an
easy interchange with the Jubilee line at Canada Water. I don't think
that going via Canada Water to get to London Bridge necessarily makes
a lot of sense (though time wise it might actually be OK), but if
passengers were intending on travelling on the Jubilee to points west
then the Canada Water interchange becomes more attractive - esp.
compared to the slightly awkward change onto the Jubilee from the
above ground platforms at LB.

It's also possible that the extra ELLX trains might make changing to
the Northern line at Clapham High Street/ Clapham North (just across
the road from each other) more attractive - though in the rush hour
the Northern line is already packed solid by this point for northbound
journeys. I suppose it's remotely possible that some pax might prefer
getting on the Northern line here compared to joining the scrum at the
tube station at London Bridge, though I have to say there's probably a
better way of doing their journey!

---

One final thing - the Blackfriars to Sevenoaks trains are going to be
extended from Blackfriars through the central section of Thameslink to
terminate at Kentish Town, This is an intermediate measure because
Blackfriars station is going to be redeveloped as part of Thameslink
3000 and will be losing its bay platforms for a while - however it now
looks as though the Catford Loop line route to Sevenoaks will form one
of the permanent Thameslink routes once all the works have finished
(in effect swapping with the Sutton Loop line, which is currently
served by Thameslink but will in future years have trains terminating
at new bay platforms on the other side of Blackfriars station to where
the current bay platforms are situated).

New through services via the Thameslink route across central London
might help to lessen the blow to users of DH for the loss of the
direct London Bridge services (though courtesy of works in the central
Thameslink section it's unlikely said services will run through during
most weekends).

I trust that's all clear as mud! I'm happy to clarify any of the above.

On Sep 25, 1:38*am, Mizter T wrote:
On 24 Sep, 22:04, wrote:





In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

ELLX2 would take the pressure off London Bridge at a very opportune
time - that of the Thameslink reconstruction - but the service that's
getting kicked out of London Bridge because there's not enough space,
the Victoria to LB South London Line service, is going to get a quasi-
replacement that will run from Victoria to Bellingham via Peckham Rye
(or at least that's the strong recommendation of the sarf lahndon
RUS). I just fear that the DfT might think that it has done its bit
with that and thus ignore calls for ELLX2.

So if I got to Denmark Hill station, how would I get to Central London
without the South London Line service?

The South London Line isn't the only service that serves Denmark Hill.
I'll run through them - (these are off-peak service patters BTW,
there's a few extra rush hour trains to and from Victoria though none
of these are SLL services).

* The aforementioned South London Line (SLL) service - half-hourly
service calling at all stations between Victoria and London Bridge via
Peckham Rye. Runs seven days a week.

* Blackfriars to Sevenoaks service - half hourly service calling at
all stations from Blackfriars to Sevenoaks via Peckham Rye and
Swanley. Runs Monday to Saturday, on Sunday this service does run but
from Victoria rather than Blackfriars - hence it doesn't call at
Elephant & Castle, instead it runs fast between Victoria and Denmark
Hill.

* Victoria to Dartford service via Lewisham - half hourly service,
runs fast between Victoria and Denmark Hill then all stations to
Dartford via Lewisham and Bexleyheath. Runs Monday to Saturday only,
no Sunday service. Also this service finishes altogether in mid-
evening.

---

So, let's fast forward to the brave new world. The SLL service as it
stands is set to finish for three main reasons - (1) there's not going
to be enough space in the rebuilt London Bridge to accommodate it
because the station will have fewer terminating platforms;
(2) the main platforms at Battersea Park are set to be extended to
handle longer suburban trains - because of the layout of the station
this will mean that the extended platforms will foul the junction with
the SLL and hence SLL services are to be sacrificed to this end;
(3) the south central side of Victoria station is too busy, getting
rid of the SLL will provide more platform capacity for other suburban
services.

However, there is a plan for a replacement South London Line service -
I've called it "SLL2" before so I will do so again but do note that's
not its official name! SLL2 will run from the less congested south
eastern side of Victoria, it will completely bypass Battersea Park
station altogether by taking a different route,

I didn't know that. Sounds like the loss of a useful diversion route.

So it will have to use Stewarts Lane in both directions, which will be
a bit of a pinch.

it will then call at
all stations from Wandsworth Road via Denmark Hill to Peckham Rye,
then instead of turning towards London Bridge it will carry on along
the Catford Loop line calling at Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford and
then terminate at Bellingham (where there are sidings it can make use
of).

In this new world there will not be any direct trains from Denmark
Hill to London Bridge - those wishing to make this journey by rail
will need to take the first train from DH to Peckham Rye then one of
the frequent services from there to London Bridge.

(Significantly less frequent without the service from Denmark Hill
though.)

But only the potential ELLX services could provide a convenient
interchange at Peckham Rye by the sound of it. Otherwise a trek
through ****-soaked, concrete staircases for people who don't normally
see Peckham except through the train window.

Not a very attractive route to London Bridge for people who currently
have a regular train service, including large numbers of hospital
staff.

My bet is that with the coming recession, extended platforms at
Battersea Park won't be used, and ELLX2 won't happen, so it will be a
loss of service with no corresponding benefit. Happy to be proved
wrong though ...

MIG wrote in news:051823b7-ea14-4958-bcfa-
:

Yes, I think that the SWT 455 refurbishments are another example of
good design, and really show up the lack of thought that went into the
nearly new 376s.

Hmm, to a point, yes. The 455s still quite often depart from Clapham Jn
and Vauxhall inbound during the morning peak before all those wanting to
get off are able to do so. The main problem with the redesign is the
airline-style seats: if the person in the window seat wants out then the
person in the aisle seat has to get up and move into the aisle, but when
that's full of standing passengers (or passengers queueing to get off),
they can't do so in time.

At CJ in particular, the passengers waiting to board usually start doing so
before those leaving are all out, which only adds to the problem.

A guard said to me that SWT is judged on trains arriving at Waterloo on
time. Passengers complaining don't cost them money.

Peter

--
Peter Campbell Smith ~ London ~ pjcs00 (a) gmail.com

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

Yes, I think that the SWT 455 refurbishments are another example of
good design, and really show up the lack of thought that went into the
nearly new 376s.

The SWT refurbished 455s compare very favourably with the various 317
refurbishments which are pants by comparison.

--
Colin Rosenstiel