On Oct 30, 10:13 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
Though it does reflect the de-facto usage of one-day Travelcards, as
it is almost impossible to enforce their non-transfer.

I always used to use my other halfs season ticket oyster if she didn't
need it that day. Why shouldn't they be transfered? The money has been
paid for a service for X days, end of story. If you hire out a video
you don't expect Blockbuster or whoever to try and enforce a rule
whereby only the person who rented it can watch it so I see no reason
why season tickets should be any different. Luckily LU have all but
dispensed with photocards which makes the process a lot easier.

B2003

On 31 Oct, 12:41, Boltar wrote:
Why shouldn't they be transfered? The money has been
paid for a service for X days, end of story.

But how much service have you paid for? TfL define it as "as much
usage as one person can make of the card in one month", and you're
defining it as "as much usage as whoever has the card can make in one
month". Given the latter is higher than the former, you clearly are
getting more service than you've paid for, at least according to the
terms.

(yes, this is a very ephemeral argument, but given the service they're
selling has a marginal cost per passenger of essentially zero, any
pricing scheme is going to be ephemeral and artificial)

U

On Oct 31, 1:05 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 31 Oct, 12:41, Boltar wrote:

Why shouldn't they be transfered? The money has been
paid for a service for X days, end of story.

But how much service have you paid for? TfL define it as "as much
usage as one person can make of the card in one month", and you're
defining it as "as much usage as whoever has the card can make in one
month". Given the latter is higher than the former, you clearly are
getting more service than you've paid for, at least according to the
terms.

Given that AFAIK its not required to give your name and address if you
buy a weekly (not sure about a monthly) , then the implication is its
not tied to a single individual, you're simply buying a service that
can used by whoever has the card. It may well state in the smallprint
somewhere that only a single person can use it but if they can't
define that single person thats tough luck. After all, someone may go
out and buy a card for someone else in cash - so who is entitled to
use it - the person who bought it or the one it was bought for?

B2003

On 31 Oct, 13:13, Boltar wrote:
On Oct 31, 1:05 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 31 Oct, 12:41, Boltar wrote:

Why shouldn't they be transfered? The money has been
paid for a service for X days, end of story.

But how much service have you paid for? TfL define it as "as much
usage as one person can make of the card in one month", and you're
defining it as "as much usage as whoever has the card can make in one
month". Given the latter is higher than the former, you clearly are
getting more service than you've paid for, at least according to the
terms.

Given that AFAIK its not required to give your name and address if you
buy a weekly (not sure about a monthly) , then the implication is its
not tied to a single individual, you're simply buying a service that
can used by whoever has the card.

It may well state in the smallprint
somewhere that only a single person can use it but if they can't
define that single person thats tough luck. After all, someone may go
out and buy a card for someone else in cash - so who is entitled to
use it - the person who bought it or the one it was bought for?

It actually say it may be not be "transferred", which suggests the act
of passing it from one person to another is what's prohibited.

Though actually I note the rule doesn't actually prohibit what we're
discussing - "If you have a season ticket on your Oyster card,
you cannot transfer it to anyone else to pay as they go." I can't see
any wording that says you can't transfer it to someone else to use the
season part.

btw, Blockbuster say:
"You agree to [...] the prohibition on [...] renting or otherwise
supplying them to third parties"

http://www.blockbuster.co.uk/bbsitec...payperrent.htm

U

On 31 Oct, 13:39, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 31 Oct, 13:13, Boltar wrote:





On Oct 31, 1:05 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 31 Oct, 12:41, Boltar wrote:

Why shouldn't they be transfered? The money has been
paid for a service for X days, end of story.

But how much service have you paid for? TfL define it as "as much
usage as one person can make of the card in one month", and you're
defining it as "as much usage as whoever has the card can make in one
month". Given the latter is higher than the former, you clearly are
getting more service than you've paid for, at least according to the
terms.

Given that AFAIK its not required to give your name and address if you
buy a weekly (not sure about a monthly) , then the implication is its
not tied to a single individual, you're simply buying a service that
can used by whoever has the card.
It may well state in the smallprint
somewhere that only a single person can use it but if they can't
define that single person thats tough luck. After all, someone may go
out and buy a card for someone else in cash - so who is entitled to
use it - the person who bought it or the one it was bought for?

It actually say it may be not be "transferred", which suggests the act
of passing it from one person to another is what's prohibited.

Though actually I note the rule doesn't actually prohibit what we're
discussing - *"If you have a season ticket on your Oyster card,
you cannot transfer it to anyone else to pay as they go." I can't see
any wording that says you can't transfer it to someone else to use the
season part.

btw, Blockbuster say:
"You agree to [...] the prohibition on [...] renting or otherwise
supplying them to third parties"

http://www.blockbuster.co.uk/bbsitec...dconditions/pa...

U- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Isn't that Blockbuster protecting themselves though? If people could
legally hire a video from Blockbuster and then charge a roomful of
people to watch it, Blockbuster would do a lot more business, but they
themselves are presumably prohibited from renting out on that basis.

You can't easily charge a whole load of people for shared use of your
Oyster or travelcard.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 05:41:46 -0700 (PDT), Boltar
wrote:

I always used to use my other halfs season ticket oyster if she didn't
need it that day. Why shouldn't they be transfered?

There is the other side of it, which is that if I forget my rail
season ticket, I can have the purchase of the necessary return ticket
refunded up to twice a year, and I can have it replaced for a nominal
fare if lost/stolen. This wouldn't be possible with a transferrable
season ticket, as someone could entirely validly be using it[1], and
so another could be effectively obtained fraudulently.

The answer is to do as the Germans do, and offer the choice of
non-transferrable with that option, and transferrable without it.
Perhaps a slightly higher price could be charged for transferrable
tickets.

For weekly bus tickets costing 11 quid, this isn't a big issue. For
an annual season costing thousands, it's a massive issue if you lost
the ability to have another issued for an admin fee if it was lost or
stolen.

[1] This could be where Oyster comes in, as the old one could be
blocked, so this might still be possible.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Nov 1, 10:25*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 05:41:46 -0700 (PDT), Boltar

wrote:
I always used to use my other halfs season ticket oyster if she didn't
need it that day. Why shouldn't they be transfered?

There is the other side of it, which is that if I forget my rail
season ticket, I can have the purchase of the necessary return ticket
refunded up to twice a year, and I can have it replaced for a nominal
fare if lost/stolen. *This wouldn't be possible with a transferrable
season ticket, as someone could entirely validly be using it[1], and
so another could be effectively obtained fraudulently.

The answer is to do as the Germans do, and offer the choice of
non-transferrable with that option, and transferrable without it.
Perhaps a slightly higher price could be charged for transferrable
tickets.

For weekly bus tickets costing 11 quid, this isn't a big issue. *For
an annual season costing thousands, it's a massive issue if you lost
the ability to have another issued for an admin fee if it was lost or
stolen.

[1] This could be where Oyster comes in, as the old one could be
blocked, so this might still be possible.

If it was a paper annual season, there would be a record of the ticket
number and it could be blocked.

When someone grabbed my annual season (possibly not deliberately) back
in the early 1990s I had a long discussion about it with BR where they
said that it was possible to look for a pattern of use (and hang out
ready to arrest someone?) and also possible to stop it from working
barriers.

I said why not do that then, but they said that they didn't do that in
case it caused a panic at the barrier. I thought that was completely
spurious, becuase as soon as it was known that stolen seasons don't
work the barriers people wouldn't bother stealing them.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 05:02:07 -0700 (PDT),
MIG wrote:

When someone grabbed my annual season (possibly not deliberately) back
in the early 1990s
Did you get it back nearly straight away?

My partner's father did exactly this to someone at Euston. He had a
single that got "eaten" by the barrier. He then waited because he was
expecting his ticket. The chap behind put in his gold card which Jen's
dad then took and walked off with it - leaving the gold card owner
stranded behind the barrier.

Fortunately, my girlfriend saw this happen and ran after her dad and got
the season ticket back.

My partner has had her single ticket "stolen" by someone at the Euston
barriers before as well. They've had an invalid ticket or someone else
wrong with it. She's put her ticket in immediately behind them and then
they've exited using her ticket leaving her with no ticket and no way
out.

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Nov 1, 1:20*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 05:02:07 -0700 (PDT),
* * MIG wrote:

When someone grabbed my annual season (possibly not deliberately) back
in the early 1990s

Did you get it back nearly straight away?

My partner's father did exactly this to someone at Euston. *He had a
single that got "eaten" by the barrier. He then waited because he was
expecting his ticket. The chap behind put in his gold card which Jen's
dad then took and walked off with it - leaving the gold card owner
stranded behind the barrier.

Fortunately, my girlfriend saw this happen and ran after her dad and got
the season ticket back.

My partner has had her single ticket "stolen" by someone at the Euston
barriers before as well. They've had an invalid ticket or someone else
wrong with it. She's put her ticket in immediately behind them and then
they've exited using her ticket leaving her with no ticket and no way
out.

As I remember the procedure used to be that you had to turn up in
person at Cannon Street to face a humiliating interview with a
horrible man who obviously thought he was a TV cop, without any
inkling as to whether it would be replaced.

Explaining that you'd have to walk across London in your lunch break
because you have no travelcard, and that you need some idea whether
you ought to give up your job rather than run up a credit card bill
for daily travel, would not result in any clue as to whether you had a
hope of getting a replacement or refund.

In the end, I did get a replacement and refund for all the daily
tickets I'd had to buy with a credit card. I just wish they'd saved
me some stress by letting me know what was likely to happen.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:20:04 GMT, Tim Woodall
wrote:

My partner has had her single ticket "stolen" by someone at the Euston
barriers before as well. They've had an invalid ticket or someone else
wrong with it. She's put her ticket in immediately behind them and then
they've exited using her ticket leaving her with no ticket and no way
out.

The only time that sort of thing has happened to me has involved
Oyster users, in which case there has been no loss of my ticket, and
I've been walking quickly enough that I've actually managed to
tailgate the offender through the barrier.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.