On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:57:10 -0000, wrote:

Hamburg also has an on-board system for platform monitoring.

Indeed. It was the introduction of this on the S-Bahn in 2000 (the
U-Bahn had had it for years, though not at all stations) that finally
did away with the charming old tungsten-lit pre-war EMUs.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:03:35 -0800 (PST), D7666 wrote:

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

DOO requires a clear view of the entire side of the train. This can be
done through mirrors, CCTV, or a combination.

Thinking more on this since I made that comment perhaps my involvement
with underground infrastructure has confused me ... perhaps we have a
CCTV requirement that national railways do not.

IIRC, the NR platforms at Harrow-on-the-Hill only have mirrors. The
north/westbound NR platform is occasionally used by Amersham-bound LU
trains.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:00:51 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:03:35 -0800 (PST), D7666 wrote:

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

DOO requires a clear view of the entire side of the train. This can be
done through mirrors, CCTV, or a combination.

Thinking more on this since I made that comment perhaps my involvement
with underground infrastructure has confused me ... perhaps we have a
CCTV requirement that national railways do not.

IIRC, the NR platforms at Harrow-on-the-Hill only have mirrors. The
north/westbound NR platform is occasionally used by Amersham-bound LU
trains.

Do they stop there these days? When I lived in Harrow it was the
through line for trains that didn't stop.

There was the famous occasion when the signalman thought the Master
Cutler was a Uxbridge fast and routed it down the line to West Harrow.
I never did find out how they got it back on the main line.

On Dec 17, 10:13*pm, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:00:51 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:03:35 -0800 (PST), D7666 wrote:

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

DOO requires a clear view of the entire side of the train. This can be
done through mirrors, CCTV, or a combination.

Thinking more on this since I made that comment perhaps my involvement
with underground infrastructure has confused me ... perhaps we have a
CCTV requirement that national railways do not.

IIRC, the NR platforms at Harrow-on-the-Hill only have mirrors. The
north/westbound NR platform is occasionally used by Amersham-bound LU
trains.

Do they stop there these days? When I lived in Harrow it was the
through line for trains that didn't stop.

There was the famous occasion when the signalman thought the Master
Cutler was a Uxbridge fast and routed it down the line to West Harrow.
I never did find out how they got it back on the main line.

Don't all LU trains stop at Harrow on the Hill? Last time I got an
Amersham-bound LU train I was slightly surprised that it used platform
1 at HoTH, which I expected to be used mainly by Chiltern when they
stopped. However, it had stopped at Wembley Park in platform 1 as
well, where I got on (still requiring a crossover to get to platform 1
at HoTH).

I put both down to changed patterns in the many years since I had been
that way before. Firstly, you now get fast plus Wembley Park (where
stopping at Wembley Park used to be only done by the extra stopping
Amershams that ran on Sundays) and secondly, all Metropolitans seemed
to cross after HoTH rather than before. It does make sense to group
Chiltern and LU fast Amershams in the same platform though.

On Dec 18, 12:19*am, MIG wrote:
On Dec 17, 10:13*pm, Christopher A. Lee wrote:





On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:00:51 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:03:35 -0800 (PST), D7666 wrote:

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

DOO requires a clear view of the entire side of the train. This can be
done through mirrors, CCTV, or a combination.

Thinking more on this since I made that comment perhaps my involvement
with underground infrastructure has confused me ... perhaps we have a
CCTV requirement that national railways do not.

IIRC, the NR platforms at Harrow-on-the-Hill only have mirrors. The
north/westbound NR platform is occasionally used by Amersham-bound LU
trains.

Do they stop there these days? When I lived in Harrow it was the
through line for trains that didn't stop.

There was the famous occasion when the signalman thought the Master
Cutler was a Uxbridge fast and routed it down the line to West Harrow.
I never did find out how they got it back on the main line.

Don't all LU trains stop at Harrow on the Hill? *Last time I got an
Amersham-bound LU train I was slightly surprised that it used platform
1 at HoTH, which I expected to be used mainly by Chiltern when they
stopped. *However, it had stopped at Wembley Park in platform 1 as
well, where I got on (still requiring a crossover to get to platform 1
at HoTH).

I put both down to changed patterns in the many years since I had been
that way before. *Firstly, you now get fast plus Wembley Park (where
stopping at Wembley Park used to be only done by the extra stopping
Amershams that ran on Sundays) and secondly, all Metropolitans seemed
to cross after HoTH rather than before. *It does make sense to group
Chiltern and LU fast Amershams in the same platform though.

Northbound platforming at HotH is normally Plat 1 for Chiltern, 3 for
Watford or Amersham and 4 for Uxbridge. During the peak there are
several occasions when a NB Amersham and a NB Watford are due at
Harrow at the same time. These are the northbound Amersham trains that
will generally use Platform 1.

I've still not quite worked out the rationale behind the Wembley Park
stops during the peak, as the pattern seems a bit inconsistent for the
'fast' services. It might have to do with crewe changes though.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:19:03 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

On Dec 17, 10:13*pm, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:00:51 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:03:35 -0800 (PST), D7666 wrote:

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

DOO requires a clear view of the entire side of the train. This can be
done through mirrors, CCTV, or a combination.

Thinking more on this since I made that comment perhaps my involvement
with underground infrastructure has confused me ... perhaps we have a
CCTV requirement that national railways do not.

IIRC, the NR platforms at Harrow-on-the-Hill only have mirrors. The
north/westbound NR platform is occasionally used by Amersham-bound LU
trains.

Do they stop there these days? When I lived in Harrow it was the
through line for trains that didn't stop.

There was the famous occasion when the signalman thought the Master
Cutler was a Uxbridge fast and routed it down the line to West Harrow.
I never did find out how they got it back on the main line.

Don't all LU trains stop at Harrow on the Hill? Last time I got an
Amersham-bound LU train I was slightly surprised that it used platform
1 at HoTH, which I expected to be used mainly by Chiltern when they
stopped. However, it had stopped at Wembley Park in platform 1 as
well, where I got on (still requiring a crossover to get to platform 1
at HoTH).

Not when I lived there. Fast Uxbridge trains were non-stop from
Finchley Road to Rayner's Lane, and fast Aylesbury (later Amersham)
were non-stop from Finchley Road to Moor Park (AFAIR) or perhaps
Rickmansworth. There was a curve from the down BR main line to West
Harrow instead of using the flyunder.


I put both down to changed patterns in the many years since I had been
that way before. Firstly, you now get fast plus Wembley Park (where
stopping at Wembley Park used to be only done by the extra stopping
Amershams that ran on Sundays) and secondly, all Metropolitans seemed
to cross after HoTH rather than before. It does make sense to group
Chiltern and LU fast Amershams in the same platform though.

On Dec 18, 1:12*am, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:19:03 -0800 (PST), MIG





wrote:
On Dec 17, 10:13*pm, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:00:51 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:03:35 -0800 (PST), D7666 wrote:

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

DOO requires a clear view of the entire side of the train. This can be
done through mirrors, CCTV, or a combination.

Thinking more on this since I made that comment perhaps my involvement
with underground infrastructure has confused me ... perhaps we have a
CCTV requirement that national railways do not.

IIRC, the NR platforms at Harrow-on-the-Hill only have mirrors. The
north/westbound NR platform is occasionally used by Amersham-bound LU
trains.

Do they stop there these days? When I lived in Harrow it was the
through line for trains that didn't stop.

There was the famous occasion when the signalman thought the Master
Cutler was a Uxbridge fast and routed it down the line to West Harrow.
I never did find out how they got it back on the main line.

Don't all LU trains stop at Harrow on the Hill? *Last time I got an
Amersham-bound LU train I was slightly surprised that it used platform
1 at HoTH, which I expected to be used mainly by Chiltern when they
stopped. *However, it had stopped at Wembley Park in platform 1 as
well, where I got on (still requiring a crossover to get to platform 1
at HoTH).

Not when I lived there. Fast Uxbridge trains were non-stop from
Finchley Road to Rayner's Lane, and fast Aylesbury (later Amersham)
were non-stop from Finchley Road to Moor Park (AFAIR) or perhaps
Rickmansworth. There was a curve from the down BR main line to West
Harrow instead of using the flyunder.

When was that taken out? I don't remember that one at all. I expect
the patterns I remember would be from going that way a lot in the late
1970s.

On Dec 18, 1:01*am, Andy wrote:
On Dec 18, 12:19*am, MIG wrote:





On Dec 17, 10:13*pm, Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:00:51 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:03:35 -0800 (PST), D7666 wrote:

I'm probably wrong but I thought mirrors are an aid to driver to see
guard but DOO needs CCTV ?

DOO requires a clear view of the entire side of the train. This can be
done through mirrors, CCTV, or a combination.

Thinking more on this since I made that comment perhaps my involvement
with underground infrastructure has confused me ... perhaps we have a
CCTV requirement that national railways do not.

IIRC, the NR platforms at Harrow-on-the-Hill only have mirrors. The
north/westbound NR platform is occasionally used by Amersham-bound LU
trains.

Do they stop there these days? When I lived in Harrow it was the
through line for trains that didn't stop.

There was the famous occasion when the signalman thought the Master
Cutler was a Uxbridge fast and routed it down the line to West Harrow..
I never did find out how they got it back on the main line.

Don't all LU trains stop at Harrow on the Hill? *Last time I got an
Amersham-bound LU train I was slightly surprised that it used platform
1 at HoTH, which I expected to be used mainly by Chiltern when they
stopped. *However, it had stopped at Wembley Park in platform 1 as
well, where I got on (still requiring a crossover to get to platform 1
at HoTH).

I put both down to changed patterns in the many years since I had been
that way before. *Firstly, you now get fast plus Wembley Park (where
stopping at Wembley Park used to be only done by the extra stopping
Amershams that ran on Sundays) and secondly, all Metropolitans seemed
to cross after HoTH rather than before. *It does make sense to group
Chiltern and LU fast Amershams in the same platform though.

Northbound platforming at HotH is normally Plat 1 for Chiltern, 3 for
Watford or Amersham and 4 for Uxbridge. During the peak there are
several occasions when a NB Amersham and a NB Watford are due at
Harrow at the same time. These are the northbound Amersham trains that
will generally use Platform 1.

I've still not quite worked out the rationale behind the Wembley Park
stops during the peak, as the pattern seems a bit inconsistent for the
'fast' services. It might have to do with crewe changes though.

Whoops, that should read 'It might have to do with crew changes'

On Dec 18, 1:01 am, Andy wrote:

I've still not quite worked out the rationale behind the Wembley Park
stops during the peak, as the pattern seems a bit inconsistent

AIUI it is related to Met. - Jubilee interchanging with Wembley Park
relieving Finchley Road. If all passengers requiring interchange had
to do this at Finchley Road dwell times of both lines would increase
and/or platform overcrowding would occur at FIR. Yes I am aware there
are both busier and less well laid out interchanges - but if there a
way to provide some relief where possible it is better to do so for
all round journey flexibility.

--
Nick

On Dec 18, 10:45*am, wrote:
On Dec 18, 1:01 am, Andy wrote:

I've still not quite worked out the rationale behind the Wembley Park
stops during the peak, as the pattern seems a bit inconsistent

AIUI it is related to Met. - Jubilee interchanging with Wembley Park
relieving Finchley Road. If all passengers requiring interchange had
to do this at Finchley Road dwell times of both lines would increase
and/or platform overcrowding would occur at FIR. Yes I am aware there
are both busier and less well laid out interchanges - but if there a
way to provide some relief where possible it is better to do so for
all round journey flexibility.


I understand this for the trains on the 'slow' lines at Wembley Park,
but these all stop anyway. What I can't work out is why only some of
the trains on the 'fast' lines are timetabled to stop. Surely very few
passengers would choose to change at Wembley Park to / from these
trains (if heading in the same direction, i.e. NB to NB) as it would
involve using the footbridge instead of a cross-platform change at
Finchley Road.