In message , at 17:02:21 on Wed, 3
Dec 2008, Andrew Heenan remarked:
And where is the obvious place "past Shenfield"? Colchester is the nearest
that makes sense.

Not my area, and I wouldn't presume to guess.

It is my area, and I do presume to guess.

But I am sure of one thing:
"Not Shenfield"

Bluff. Called.

[There's nowhere "slightly" further out than Shenfield that has the
capacity to turn the requisite number of trains]
--
Roland Perry

On Dec 3, 10:15*am, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, 1506 wrote:
On Dec 3, 9:27*am, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:21:05 -0800 (PST), 1506

On the positive side this means that the branch will remain something
of a preserved example of early urban transit. *Between Westbourne
park and Goldhawk Road, the route is in essence an "Elevated". *There
are not too many examples of "Els" left anywhere in the world. *Only
Chicago has signifficant sections remaining.

Not to mention New York.

I didn't think there were too many left in NYC. *I can only recall one
short section in Manhattan. *Do the other Boroughs have many Els left?

Outside Manhattan, the subway is substantially, perhaps even mostly,
elevated. It includes sections running on top of roads, and the marvellous
and entirely aerial Broadway Junction:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=40.6...an/2368185126/

The Street View mode on the google map is a pretty good way to take a look
round the structure.

Thank you for the GREAT links. I will enjoy them at my leisure.

On Dec 3, 10:11*am, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:46:20 -0800 (PST), 1506





wrote:
On Dec 3, 9:27*am, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:21:05 -0800 (PST), 1506

wrote:
On Dec 3, 2:39*am, "David A Stocks" wrote:
"1506" wrote in message

...

Yes! *In this instance the cost of conversion of the Hammersmith
branch would be a very small part of the overall cost of Crossrail.

The 'cost' needs to include the disruption to current users of services on
the branch while the conversion is being done. This could be substantial.

IIRC, earlier in the thread I conceded that converting the Hammersmith
Branch to a Crossrail extension is perhaps not a good idea.

On the positive side this means that the branch will remain something
of a preserved example of early urban transit. *Between Westbourne
park and Goldhawk Road, the route is in essence an "Elevated". *There
are not too many examples of "Els" left anywhere in the world. *Only
Chicago has signifficant sections remaining.

Not to mention New York.

I didn't think there were too many left in NYC. *I can only recall one
short section in Manhattan. *Do the other Boroughs have many Els left?

Yes. The outer ends of most of the longer subways. The last one I used
was in the Bronx. *But you just have to drive off the freeways to see
how many there are. New York has major problems with electrolytic
corrosion on these that the London Underground's 4-rail system avoids.

And of course the extension to JFK is elevated.

If you want another modern example, how about BART? Outside the city
centres it is elevated apart from sections in the central median of
freeways.

Thank you. Yes, you are correct, there are more Els around than one
would think. I have utilized Bart. I guess Los Angeles' Green Line
would also qualify.

Adrian

On Dec 3, 10:02*am, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 3 Dec, 17:46, 1506 wrote:

I didn't think there were too many left in NYC. *I can only recall one
short section in Manhattan. *Do the other Boroughs have many Els left?

Brooklyn is chockablock with them, and I think most of the Subway
network in Queen's is elevated.

(also, I'd question whether you can build a true El with brick
viaducts, given the lack of space underneath them)

U

Point taken, although I wonder what options were available in the
1860s?

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:15:53 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Outside Manhattan, the subway is substantially, perhaps even mostly,
elevated. It includes sections running on top of roads, and the marvellous
and entirely aerial Broadway Junction:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=40.677957%2C-73.902283
http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/nyct/010219/117.jpg
http://flickr.com/photos/hielkeoud/2613825920/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coverwi...on/3014806927/
http://flickr.com/photos/jpchan/2368185126/

The Street View mode on the google map is a pretty good way to take a look
round the structure.

Curse you Mr Anderson - that Google Street View is just too good. That
looks the most amazing structure and I'm sure there are other amazing
subway junctions to sit and peruse. I fear I may go square eyed while
undertaking more research. Now if only the Americans would stop treating
visitors like potential terrorists I'd be persuaded to go back to NYC to
take a closer look.
--
Paul C

On Dec 3, 9:57*am, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 3 Dec, 09:40, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

Once it's built, people with brains will start to say Shenfield? Abbey Wood?
Other Stations Halfway To A Logical Junction? Get Real!

Cockfosters? Epping? West Ruislip? Amersham? Get Real!

Or: Welwyn Garden City? St Albans? Hertford North? Shenfield? High
Wycombe? West Croydon? etc etc

I'd reckon the number of London inner-suburban services terminating
nowhere in particular outweighs the number terminating at a "logical
junction", to apparently no harm.

Shenfield is a junction* and also a place where people from Harold
Wood etc can change to longer-distance services. To make Maidenhead
in any way equivalent (particularly given that Reading is already
those things plus a major town) there would have to be major changes
if paths that used to go to Reading are taken up by Crossrail, eg

All services from Paddington running non-stop to at least Maidenhead

Some Wales and Bristol services calling at Maidenhead (and maybe
missing out Reading).

Maybe that's what will happen. Or maybe the stations between
Maidenhead and Reading will lose their service.


*Yeah I know Maidenhead sort of is.

On Dec 3, 5:53*pm, Graeme Wall wrote:
In message
* * * * * 1506 wrote:

[snip]



IIRC, earlier in the thread I conceded that converting the Hammersmith
Branch to a Crossrail extension is perhaps not a good idea.

On the positive side this means that the branch will remain something
of a preserved example of early urban transit. *Between Westbourne
park and Goldhawk Road, the route is in essence an "Elevated". *There
are not too many examples of "Els" left anywhere in the world. *Only
Chicago has signifficant sections remaining.

You've not looked at south London lately then...

Isn't there a sort of circular elevated route in Paris? It's been a
long time ...

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
Curse you Mr Anderson - that Google Street View is just too good. That
looks the most amazing structure and I'm sure there are other amazing
subway junctions to sit and peruse. I fear I may go square eyed while
undertaking more research. Now if only the Americans would stop
treating visitors like potential terrorists I'd be persuaded to go back
NYC to take a closer look.

New York generally is a fascinating place transport wise and I would
highly recommend it; despite having to get through immigration (which,
last time I entered the US, in SFO wasn't too onerous at all).
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:15:53 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Outside Manhattan, the subway is substantially, perhaps even mostly,
elevated. It includes sections running on top of roads, and the
marvellous and entirely aerial Broadway Junction:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=40.677957%2C-73.902283
http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/nyct/010219/117.jpg
http://flickr.com/photos/hielkeoud/2613825920/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coverwi...on/3014806927/
http://flickr.com/photos/jpchan/2368185126/

The Street View mode on the google map is a pretty good way to take
a look round the structure.

Curse you Mr Anderson - that Google Street View is just too good.
That looks the most amazing structure and I'm sure there are other
amazing subway junctions to sit and peruse. I fear I may go square
eyed while undertaking more research. Now if only the Americans would
stop treating visitors like potential terrorists I'd be persuaded to
go back to NYC to take a closer look.

They seem to have a lot of "bridges" which are practically a couple of rails
in the air. The only time I've ever seen the underside of a train in England
was in the subway (i.e. pedestrian underpass) under the Volks Railway.

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:33:58 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald ]
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
Curse you Mr Anderson - that Google Street View is just too good. That
looks the most amazing structure and I'm sure there are other amazing
subway junctions to sit and peruse. I fear I may go square eyed while
undertaking more research. Now if only the Americans would stop
treating visitors like potential terrorists I'd be persuaded to go back
NYC to take a closer look.

New York generally is a fascinating place transport wise and I would
highly recommend it; despite having to get through immigration (which,
last time I entered the US, in SFO wasn't too onerous at all).

Not just New York City. I live near Poughkeepsie, half way to the
state capital Albany on the old New York Central main line. It's one
of the world's scenic railway routes at water level along the Hudson
Valley.

We have push-pull electro diesels to Grand Central which is an
incredible station. And similar electro diesels pulling Amtrak to Penn
Station which is a disaster in the basement of Madison Square Garden
in one direction, and Buffalo, Chicago or Canada in the other.

They only recently stopped using the FL9, the electro-diesel version
of the famous streamlined F-units recently, and they still come out of
hiding on special ooccasions.

On the other route from Penn to Boston or Washington we have fast
regular electrics including the Acela.

These are all pretty impressive even to somebody who thinks most
American diesels all look the same.